I support Ukraine!

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[–]grassfed 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Everyone careful socks is getting very angry

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (18 children)

WHAT THE FUCK is up with the anti-Ukraine fuckery on Saidit? Whatever the Russian-funded [authoritarian] right-wing news media tells its base to do is what they'll do (including their support for ruining the lives of millions of innocent people). Really stupid and evil of this utterly useless batch of US cucks who will [believe] anything these right-wing propagandists stick in their faces. You know who pays for this shit? Traitors like the Kochs, 2, 3, 4, 5. Some on Saidit want to support these traitors while they've been destorying the American way of life for decades. Absolutely nothing redeedable about them and those who support them, while watching war crimes in Ukraine and corporate corruption in the US, all led by a few assholes, just because they can enjoy ruining the lives of millions. Why would anyone support that? Really fucked up. [edited two words, after Jet's note]

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

They just want to think they are smart. They don't give a shit about any of the people being killed.

You losing it is not going to make any difference because they will think you have lost the intellectual high ground when you've done that.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Intellectual high ground? Lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Agreed.

But I also ask genuine questions about this surprising pattern I am seeing. What I don't understand is how anyone here cannot at least feel something for the innocent Ukrainians whose lives and homes are now shattered. If anything can unite people against the abuses of authoritarianism, I think this war can. I could ask the questions more politely...

[–]Salvador6feet6 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

My local prices went up, for what ? I didn’t gave a shit about Syria and co and to not be hypocrite I don’t give a shit about Ukraine. I don’t need to unite with likes of you for imaginary moral high grounds.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

OK - let's forget about the slaughter of 1000s of Ukrainians for a second. Here's why you still have a problem, and the explanation requires much more than this: BigOil and BigCorp are using this problem to raise prices several times higher than necessary. What can potentially limit abuses by corporations? A democratically elected body that represents YOUR concerns. What threatens that democracy? Autocratic regimes like that of Putins and several others developing in recent years, and anti-democratic propaganda in the US. What will these anti-democratic groups achieve? Crippling corruption and higher prices for us, the 99%. What will embolden these authoritarians to continue their abuses, not only in Israel, Turkey, Syria, Iran, Russia, Ukraine, the US &c? Convincing people like you that it's best to allow them to continue their abuses, because this - they tell you - will not negatively impact you. Ideed, they try to convince you that their abuses will benefit you. But what will really happen as they continue to destroy the lives of innocent people? Their approaches will support others and similar movements that will also destroy your life, and partially has begun destroying your economic life for the past 40 years. It authoritarians are not challenged at every opportunity, your standard of living - and that of your kids and relatives - will continue to decline. You can only have power within the democracit collective. Support it or suffer the consequences. Moreover, what are you as a human being if you do not care about the slaughter and destruction of thousands of the lives your innocent neighbors? (And there are many historical examples.) (hope these are better questions, /u/jet199 )

[–]Salvador6feet6 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

You do know that Putin won the election and 60% of Russian support this event so that’s kinda democratic as people who voted for Biden who now use people like you to rise the price for so called “greater good” but thing is it wouldn’t matter if Trump was picked because in the end you are choosing between candidates that elites choice, that’s what democracy is. If politician really cared about Ukraine they would told them in January to accept the neutral status since everyone know Russia would attack if Ukraine don’t accept but US let the war happen and the conclusion of this war will be that Ukraine will accept the neutral status after its whole infrastructure will be dead and 6+ million woman refugees that wouldn’t want to go back to the poorest European country to rebuild it.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

1) All official information in Russia is state-controlled, including information about elections, Putin and everything else.

2) Putin poisons, jails, murders, and/or imprisons all serious oppostion (that's not a democracy)

3) I am not being used by Biden or whomever

4) Ukraine is independent, and should never do what Russia tells it to do.

5) Ukraine did not join NATO or the EU, and is thus already neutral

6) I am surprised that you seem not to know any of this, or the points in my previous statement. It seems that you are not interested in my arguments or in understanding what has happened. Perhaps you are interested, but your recent arguments indicate that you would prefer to agree to lies that Russian state TV wants you to believe in. I think there is no middle-ground between us on this. Perhaps avoid contact with me in the future. I do not have time to explain so much.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Ukraine did not join NATO or the EU, and is thus already neutral

“I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies, you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.” -- Zapp Brannigan.

But seriously, the word you are looking for is "proxy". Or even puppet.

Since 2015 there has been a direct pipeline from the NATO facility in Yavoriv, where the US Army oversaw the training of 5 battalions of Ukrainian armed forces per year to NATO standards, to the fighting in Donbas. Eight years, 40 battalions.

Oh, and despite outnumbering the Russians 5:2 and defending their own homeland with short supply lines, they're still losing. Oops.

Maybe putting your trust in Nazis to fight Russians isn't such a great idea.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, Ukraine trains its soldiers. And Ukrainians have tried to remove Russian soldiers from Donbas. NATO is not officially in Ukraine. Russian military is bombing Ukraine to rubble, murding thousands of civilians. You might want to have a look. This is not a battle only with soldiers. Moreover, the 5:2 number is wrong. Active Ukraine military is 196,600. Russian active military is 1,014,000, with 2 million in reserve. Please check the facts. Please don't support the slaughter of innocent civilians.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The central Ukrainian government has been fighting Ukrainians in the break-away republics,, including killing civilians.

Active Ukraine military is 255,000 plus a million reservists who have been called up.

Russian active military are not all in Ukraine. If you think that Russia emptied their borders of all military forces, you probably also think that Azov are "moderate right-wingers" and the Ghost Of Kiev is real.

Russian troops in Ukraine are estimated at 1-200,000. Russia is clearly going easy on Ukraine, and are heavily outnumbered. And still winning: they have air superiority, they grounded what's left of the Ukrainian airforce, have pretty much destroyed Ukraine's tanks, and can drop a hypersonic missile anywhere they choose. Clearly Putin is not trying to destroy Ukraine as a country, let alone slaughter them.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Its a war between an overt pro-Nazi authoritarian fake-democracy run for the benefit of the American military-industrial complex, versus an anti-Nazi authoritarian fake-democracy challenging the American empire.

I am tempted to make a snarky comment that we shouldn't give any more of a shit about the deaths of poor Ukrainians than we did about the deaths of poor Iraqis, Afghanis, Syrians, Libyans, or the other victims of the American empire. But that wouldn't actually be true. I did care about the deaths of innocents, not matter the colour of their skin, not just hot Ukrainian Nazi chicks.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ukaine is not pro-Nazi

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Ukaine is not pro-Nazi

The majority of Ukrainian people might not vote for Nazis, but the government, military and police special forces are absolutely riddled with them, and have been since 2014, right to the highest levels ever since far-right radical neo-Nazis took the lead as foot-soldiers for the Maidan protests. And got rewarded for it by being integrated into the military and having official Ukraine government policy to white-wash WW2 Nazi collaborators.

Up until a few months ago, Ukraine's Nazi problem was heavily reported by the media, and now it's flushed down the Memory Hole.

Let's not be like those idiots who think the sonnenrad is a "infrared IR reflective patch great for identifying emergency kits or emergency gear in low light conditions".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for the info. Yes, there are a few Nazis in Ukraine. But as you say, the majority of Ukrainians are not Nazis. The main problem with the disucssions of a few thousand Nazis in a country with 44 million at a time when Putin is bombing the country to rubble for no valid reason, is that the people committing the war crimes are themselves the Nazis.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

If you are a pacifist who opposes all wars, including WW2, the defense of South Korea, Israeli self-defense, the liberation of Kuwait, the invasion of Afghanistan, the destruction of the Libyan state, etc, then I can respect you for at least having consistent principles. War is hell, and innocent people suffer. No war is just or fair for those caught in it.

But isn't it strange that the USA mainstream press (the Democrat propaganda arm) only cares about war crimes when it benefits the US imperium? War crimes in Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, yawns and silence. If you report on American war crimes, you end up having your reputation trashed by smears and rotting in solitary consignment. If you question the pro-war narrative, you are labelled a traitor and Russian agent.

If you are selective in your pacifism, condemning Russia while remaining silent when the US and its allies commit worse attrocities and cover up their own war crimes, if you think that the same military-industrial complex that has lied about every single US war for over a century is suddenly telling you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Ukraine, then you are one of the American imperium's Useful Idiots and I pity you and fear you more.

The same neocon war mongers in the Bush Jr regime, sorry, only foreigners have regimes, the Bush government, have just flipped their colours from red to blue and are now pushing Democrats to the same "regime change" that worked so well in Iraq. Only this time against a nuclear power. The things that people will do for trillions of dollars of unaccountable military spending and grift.

a few thousand Nazis in a country with 44 million

It is a lot more than a few thousand, and its not just the number, but the fact that they are in positions of power and influence in the military and police, and that the government has been actively and extensively pandering to those Nazis for at least 8 years, actively recruiting far-right militias to kill and oppress East Ukrainian minorities since at least 2014.

None of this is new or controversial. It was well-known to anyone paying attention to eastern Europe even a few months ago, when suddenly Ukraine's troubles were pushed into the Memory Hole and Russia made out to be the Bad Guy. Remember that all through his presidency, Obama refused to arm Ukraine because the weapons were going to far-right racist, nationalist fascists and Nazis committing war crimes against minorities.

Ukraine's Nazi problem used to be a bipartisan issue. Facebook used to classify Azov as a Nazi hate group for wanting to wage a race war. Now they're heroes to the US.

The infiltration of the Ukrainian government and military by Nazis has only become labelled "Russian misinformation" since the US decided to push Ukraine into a proxy war against Russia as part of their long plan to destabilize and destroy Russia. The US is not shy about their aims, so they have to paint the Russians as the bad guys. Hence the atrocity propaganda. Every dead civilian is a genocide. (But not when we do it.) Invading a soveign country is a war crime. (But not when we do it.) The grotesque hypocrisy of the architects of the US invasion of Iraq, such as Condoleezza Rice, declaring on television that any invasion of another country is a war crime is sickening.

Around a half of Ukraine's "defense" forces are right-wing paramilitary forces, including foreigners (similar to the French Foreign Legion) recruited to make up for the fact that Ukrainians themselves were against the civil war in Donbas and were deserting the army in droves.

Zelensky was elected on a platform of ending the civil war in Donbas by entering into peaceful negotiations with Russian-speakers in East Ukraine. But those "few" white-supremacists that control the military and who were engaging in actual war crimes against Russian-speakers threatened to murder him. Literally. This is not a figure of speech or exaggeration.

Without US support, Zelensky backed down, and gave the far-right carte-blanche to do what they will, and the US and NATO has spent the last few years training literal Nazis to kill Russian-speaking Ukrainians in urban combat. Six months ago this wasn't even a little bit controversial. But that has been completely Memory Holed by the unrelenting anti-Russian propaganda.

Six months ago I never, ever would have imagined that Vladimir Putin would be the least-bad side in a war. Fuck me.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We actually agree on quite a bit of this. It's a well-written summary of a number of the most serious problems that have now been overshadowed by Putin's invasion.

Recent reports show that Russian soldiers thought they'd be greeted as liberators in Bucha and other cities, and when that didn't happen, and when they lost numerous colleagues, they angrily murdered, raped, looted, got drunk and generally took their revenge out on the civilians thay met. This is corroborated with various interviews, studies of corpses, and the influx of looted items in Belarus and elsewhere. You could say that this too is Ukrainian propaganda, but the extent to which this is corroborated by other sources, raw videos &c proves that commanders have had difficulty managing their soldiers and there is evidence that the commanders also gave orders for soldiers to commit these attrocities, ot to commit to actions that led to the attrocities, such as keeping 24 women a basement while a number of them were systematically raped, and 4 of them are now pregnant. Perhaps one can dismiss this too as propaganda, or dismiss the numerous missile attacks on civilian locations as Ukrainian false flags, or dismiss claims that over 10k have been killed in Mariupol'.

In any event, it would seem to be dismissive to respond to your notes here with only brief comment of, yeah but the attrocities of Putin's generals are still not justified by any of this pretext to their invasion. But that's part of the problem, that Putin's old-fashioned ideas about methods for regime change prove that he will continue to lose the war with Ukraine, because he's not understood Ukraine defensive strategies with foreign weapons, the proxy-war, willingness of many Ukrainians to die for their country, their PR strategies, the role of raw videos confirming Russsian attrocities, the gropolitical support for Ukraine, the way in which Putin has made Zelensky and others heroes, have made the Nazi Azov Battalion war heroes, have shown the Nazi strategies of Putin's leadership, and so much more. Putin has now helped the military industrial complexes around the world divert much needed money for their civilians to war profiteers. This is a rinse-repeat of various other wars since 1914. A few people will get rich while the working classes are sent to the slaughter.

My main point is that the 69-year-old Putin has now shown all his cards, that the authoritarian corruption in Russia has come to this logical result, that the resulting lack of understanding about reactions against Russian aggression has now resulted in genocide and other war crimes that completely overshadow the other problems in Ukraine, while in fact legitimizing some of those problems. Look for example at the kinds of people who filled the void after the removal of pro-Russian corruption in 2014-19. There were ways for Putin to go after them in the long term, but the persent old-fashioned invsion method was instead chosen, and has failed in a number of ways. Moreover, the pro-Russian corruption in Ukraine c. 1990s-2014 had to come to an end. Putin and his advisors failed to understand how their approaches would not work. Their delusion extends to comments like, 'there is no Ukraine' and the intent of the erasure of Ukraine identity, while destroying much of Ukraine, genociding Ukrainians, moving 100s of thousands to Siberia, and displacing 10 million Ukrainians (internally and externally).

Ultimately, by redrawing borders and rewriting history the Kremlin is unlikely to have done itself a favour. Through its intervention in Ukraine it has galvanised most Ukrainians in their aversion to Russia and has thereby done a great deal to demarcate the perceived differences between Ukrainians and Russians more clearly than ever before.

[–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Whatever the Russian-funded [authoritarian] right-wing news media tells its base to do is what they'll do

Who, me? I'm not a Russian bot. Not at all.

Bleep bloop blob.