all 8 comments

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's actually pretty explicit at this point within "educated society". Population control is viewed as more important than treating individuals with dignity and respect. When your "population" becomes your dominant variable, more important than the component human beings who actually comprise said population, a major death wave will result. This is precisely how communism killed tens of millions. The wave is now manifesting in the west, and will likely have a resurgence yet again within Russia and China as well. A death cult is indeed what 90% of the population of both the northern European and east Asian populations now belong to.

[–]L_X_A 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am a strong opponent of vaccine mandates, and I'm also 100% certain the WHO, the CDC, and most of the state health institutions around the world LIED about the virus, the vaccine efficacy, and its safety.

That being said, the "you don't deserve a heart transplant unless you are vaccinated" thing actually makes sense.

Is the vaccine perfectly safe? No.
Is the vaccine 100% effective? No, and its efficacy drops with every new variant.

BUT: The vaccine offers significant protection against the alpha and delta variants, considerably reducing the risk of severe sequelae and death.

Organ recipients are going to be immunocompromised for the rest of their lives. And there are far more candidates than there are organs.

In a situation where there are no other potential recipients for the organ, it's absurd to deny the surgery based on vaccination status. In a situation where there are other people dependent on a transplant, I'd say you gotta give it to the ones with the highest probability of long-term survival.

[–]StillLessons 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Natural immunity.

In at least one of the cases I read about where an organ was being denied, the person it was denied to had already recovered (relatively recently) from a confirmed case of covid. The idea that they were forcing this person - who had immunity better than vaccination, not even close as proven by the literature - to be vaccinated is cruelty. There is no medical benefit there at all. The idea that a vaccine adds immunity to natural immunity is unsupported by research. In fact, they started saying that before they had even begun doing research that could assess that question.

So no, the idea that they are actually thinking about the person's medical suitability for transplant does not fly with me. This is about compliance, and the medical community has become insane in their belief that the way people stay healthy is by complying with the orders of their doctor, regardless of whether those orders are backed up by solid research or not.

Doctors are very much at the center of this massive push toward authoritarianism. They have deluded themselves into thinking that their opinions define healthcare, whether or not those opinions have actually been proven with legitimate research.

[–]L_X_A 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Natural immunity.

Good point. Did not consider it.

[–]BravoVictor[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The vaccine offers significant protection against the alpha and delta variants, considerably reducing the risk of severe sequelae and death.

Considerably? You make it sound like anyone who doesn't get the Covid vaccine is a dead man walking. The vaccine provides a minuscule increase in protection for what's already virtually zero chance of death.

A non-vaccinated person has less than .8% chance of being hospitalized, much less dying from Covid. And that's if they even contract Covid at all. And that's assuming there are no long-term negative health effects from the vaccine due to unforeseen side-effects.

The biggest predictor in Covid death isn't vaccination status. It's pre-existing health problems. And there's no vaccine for that.

[–]L_X_A 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Considerably? You make it sound like anyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt is a dead man walking. Seatbelts provide a minuscule increase in protection for what's already virtually zero chance of death.

Driving a car is very unlikely to get you killed. But if you get into an accident, you're much better off wearing a seatbelt than not. The benefits range from not having a busted lip to not dying.

A non-vaccinated person has less than .8% chance of being hospitalized, much less dying from Covid.

Where did you get those stats from? 0.8% is lower than the case fatality rate for alpha to delta. The hospitalization rate should be considerably higher than that.

Obs: Omicron has changed those numbers considerably, but my comment is not referring to transplant refusals only in the last 2 months.

The biggest predictor in Covid death isn't vaccination status. It's pre-existing health problems. And there's no vaccine for that. And there's no vaccine for that.

Yes, there is. It's literally the vaccine.

Vaccines help the vulnerable and have a proven efficacy against sequelae. Natural immunity discounted, transplant candidates are and will remain vulnerable for the rest of their lives.

You're acting like the mirror image of a triple boosted Redditor saying you'll kill grandma if you don't vaccinate your newborn.

[–]BravoVictor[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Driving a car is very unlikely to get you killed. But if you get into an accident, you're much better off wearing a seatbelt than not. The benefits range from not having a busted lip to not dying.

I agree. And yet we're not threatening demonizing anyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt. No one's saying people who refuse to wear their seatbelt should be fired from their job, have their bank account frozen, or denied healthcare.

Where did you get those stats from? 0.8% is lower than the case fatality rate for alpha to delta. The hospitalization rate should be considerably higher than that.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/people-overestimate-covid-19-underestimate-030000133.html

"Since the vaccine was rolled out in December 2020, just 0.89% of unvaccinated people in the United States have been hospitalized due to COVID-19."

Yes, there is. It's literally the vaccine.

My point was that obesity, heart disease and other lingering quality-of-life illnesses are the main drivers of Covid deaths, due to the way Covid deaths are counted.

George Floyd, the infamous black guy allegedly suffocated by a cop in 2020, was found in the autopsy to have Covid, a disease that famously makes people weak and have difficulty breathing. And yet a court of law ruled he died from being suffocated by the cop. The evidence used in court largely relied on the coroner's judgement on the cause of death, which is subjective. The coroner found no trauma to Floyd's neck or airways, but still ruled that it was suffocation, and decided to not believe Covid or Floyd's excessive drug use played any part. If it had been a different coroner, a different judgement might have been made, which might have drastically effected history.

How Covid deaths are counted is horribly inconsistent and complicated, and largely depends on what the local coroner thinks. Some count anyone dying with Covid as a Covid death. Others, like in Floyd's case, don't.

Natural immunity discounted, transplant candidates are and will remain vulnerable for the rest of their lives.

You're arguing that people should get the vaccine because it slightly decreases the risk of death. Yet you're also arguing that people who don't get the vaccine should be denied a transplant, because giving a transplant to an unvaccinated person would slightly increase their risk of death due to a compromise immune system. Those two beliefs are incompatible, since not getting a transplant is a death sentence. If your aim is to reduce the risk of death, transplants should be given to people regardless of vaccination status.

You can logically argue that vaccination is also recommended, but you can't logically be both pro-vaccine and pro-denial of healthcare for those who don't get the vaccine.

[–]Tiwaking 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here are the stats from New Zealand: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/data-from-delta-and-omicron-outbreaks-show-1-in-15-unvaccinated-cases-were-hospitalised-significantly-more-than-vaccinated-cases.html

Data from Delta and Omicron outbreaks show 1 in 15 unvaccinated cases were hospitalised - significantly more than vaccinated

Unvaccinated people were significantly more likely to be hospitalised with COVID-19 than vaccinated during New Zealand's Delta and Omicron outbreaks.

Dr Leighton Watson, an Auckland-based a geophysicist and mathematician with the University of Canterbury, looked at data from both outbreaks and found unvaccinated COVID cases ended up in hospital much more than vaccinated cases.

For unvaccinated people, 1 in 15 cases were hospitalised during the Delta and Omicron outbreaks compared to 1 in 128 for the double-vaccinated and 1 in 213 for those with boosters.

Its based on these figures so you can do the math yourself: https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics
When you vaccinate everyone it no longer becomes possible to compare the efficacy of treatment vs non-treatment. Also: Natural Immunity occurs after infection so measuring the effects is a vaccine is impossible unless data about untreated who were infected people is available.