Where are all the conservative socialists in the West?

submitted by IamCleaver from self.politics

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[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

That is evil. What's the point of a better society if nobody is allowed to enjoy it? No one signed up for it anyway.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Can you not "enjoy" the society without going against it?

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Only if you're lucky enough to be exactly what they like, otherwise you're screwed.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Well, if you grew up in it so you probably should share most of its values and customs. Respect them. Besides, unless it is a very unhealthy prescriptive society, it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Yes I know, most humans don't use their brains and blindly copy everyone else no matter how stupid or evil it is. That really needs to stop.

Besides, unless it is a very unhealthy prescriptive society

With humans, it always is.

it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

For some people it is, and besides something not being hard isn't an excuse to force it on anyone.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

"That really needs to stop." That is never going to stop because that is just how humans evolved to operate. We are social creatures who take up the traditions and customs of those around us. We should praise it and accept it.

"With humans, it always is." By your definition perhaps...

"For some people it is" But for most it isn't. The majority shouldn't conform to minority. If it is hard for you but fine for 90% others then tough luck. Seven don't wait for one as the saying goes.

What social norms are you so firmly against anyway. I never found it that hard to follow the norms of the society I grew up in and when I did it was my problem - not that of the society.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

We should praise it and accept it.

No, we should drop our pride and stand against it because it's wrong.

But for most it isn't. The majority shouldn't conform to minority. If it is hard for you but fine for 90% others then tough luck. Seven don't wait for one as the saying goes.

That's easy for you to say when you're part of the 90%. Try to love your neighbor rather than hate your enemy, not everyone is fortunate.

What social norms are you so firmly against anyway.

Any of them. They are almost all pointless and many of them are oppressive. I'm sure you love your current social norms, but you'd change your mind if you didn't like them. Imagine an enemy takes over tomorrow and institutes their norms.

I never found it that hard to follow the norms of the society I grew up in and when I did it was my problem - not that of the society.

No, it's society's problem for not being able to tolerate someone different from them in even the tiniest matters. "It's human nature" shouldn't be an excuse to be evil.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"No, we should drop our pride and stand against it because it's wrong." Wrong because you dislike it?

"love your neighbor rather than hate your enemy," You should do both. Love those who are part of your family, your community. Hate the outsiders who wish you harm.

"Imagine an enemy takes over tomorrow and institutes their norms" Then I would go to war and try to reinstall my norms. I would not mingle with the enemy and take up his. He would probably follow my advice and try to force everyone to conform. Just because someone could use a gun against you doesn't mean you shouldn't use it against them.

"No, it's society's problem for not being able to tolerate someone different from them in even the tiniest matters." No, because the society is many and someone is ONE. One is less then many. Seven don't wait around for one.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Wrong because you dislike it?

Wrong because it's responsible for evil and corruption and causes us to dehumanize others.

You should do both. Love those who are part of your family, your community. Hate the outsiders who wish you harm.

Even Hitler and Stalin loved those who loved them. Not only that, but contrary to your warped and instinct-driven view an outsider does not equal one who wishes you harm. Rather you are the one wishing them harm for being an outsider.

Then I would go to war and try to reinstall my norms.

Then you are exactly the same as them. What makes them bad and you good when you do exactly the same thing?

Seven don't wait around for one.

I never said they are obliged to. I said they shouldn't be allowed to beat one up and murder him. Is respecting another's basic human rights really too much to ask? And as your logic goes, it's really not all that hard.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

"Wrong because it's responsible for evil and corruption and causes us to dehumanize others" Bullshit.

"Stalin" What is YOUR problem with Stalin? I have some but overall I respect him. I want to here why you compare him to Hitler (btw, comparing Stalin to Hitler is a crime where I live)

"What makes them bad and you good when you do exactly the same thing?" Nothing. I never said it anything about good and bad. There are no good and bad. Just your friends and your enemies. Those part of your society who share your values and the outsiders.

" I said they shouldn't be allowed to beat one up and murder him." I never said anyone should murder anyone. I am against the death penalty (at least for my fellow citizens). I said that if you are the minority, get conform or face the wrath of all others. For example, where I live the constitution bans gay marriages. It was passed on a referendum in a landslide. There is a small minority that think they have the "right" to gay marriages, but the society at large thinks otherwise. The society beats the desires of a minority.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The majority shouldn't conform to minority.

I think you're suffering from an either/or fallacy here. Realize that neither must conform to the other. If they had to, which you seem to assume, then it would make sense for the majority to rule. But that is not the case.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

you probably should share most of its values and customs. Respect them.

All governments are corrupt mafias. Some more than others. None deserve respect, especially when they demand it.

it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

Currently there's a class war on and they're trying to depopulate the planet. Their social norms will kill millions.

Stalin killed 40 million Russians.

Mao killed 100 million Chinese.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

First, no. Secondly I said you should respect the values and customs.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Values and customs don't come from guverments OR from "elites".

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

They come from influencers, though you are correct, not entirely. This includes the ruling class, their puppets, and their propaganda/media.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, they don't come from influencers. THEY COME FROM PREVIOUS GENERATIONS. Sometimes I wonder whether you are a closet commie, just dumb, or LARPing dumb, or truly that misguided and misinformed, or what. Jesus.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

They come from many places. Influencers, previous generations, common sense, superstition, pragmatism, etc etc etc.

Sometimes I wonder

Gimme a fucking break. Just because everyone doesn't think like you doesn't mean we're all commies. Sometimes I think you're brain damaged.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I am. Too much mercury, lead, cadmium, arsenic and aluminum. I might be severely impaired but I'm still way above average. So don't worry about my brain. The cancer is mostly gone now, so I can focus on the metals. I'll probably stop posting when my brain starts working right again. Fuckdammit I made 2-3 typos typing this. Do you realize how insulting and aggravating that is to me? No. You have no idea. But I make do.