all 11 comments

[–]Aldarion 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

It cannot be both if we use original definitions. In antiquity - which is what the Founders, who (unlike the author of the article apparently) were well-educated, had in mind - democracy meant almost exclusively direct democracy. Republic on the other hand is a mixed form of government, with elements of monarchy, aristocracy and democracy. So a country can be either a republic or a democracy - and US are a republic.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It cannot be both if we use original definitions.

No true Scotsman.

In antiquity - which is what the Founders, who (unlike the author of the article apparently) were well-educated, had in mind - democracy meant almost exclusively direct democracy.

First, it doesn't matter what the founders thought democracy and republicanism were, cause we ain't talking about arguments between the founders, we're talking about arguments between people today using contemporary definitions.

Second, you provide no source for this claim; I provided a source in the article, so you should either provide one of your own or back off.

Republic on the other hand is a mixed form of government, with elements of monarchy, aristocracy and democracy.

Is this a joke? The irony here is absurd. First, you say republicanism has elements of monarchy, when the definition of a republic is that it ain't a monarchy, then you say it has elements of democracy, while saying republics can't be democracies.

P.S. actually read the article.

[–]Aldarion 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

First, it doesn't matter what the founders thought democracy and republicanism were, cause we ain't talking about arguments between the founders, we're talking about arguments between people today using contemporary definitions.

If by "contemporary definitions" you mean how terms are usually used, there is no difference between the two and the article is completely pointless. But the article is also completely wrong, because modern arguments on "republic" vs "democracy" are in fact based on the definitions I have cited, and not on the Merriam-Webster definitions used in the article. You can see it in how Democrats want to get rid of the electoral college.

Second, you provide no source for this claim; I provided a source in the article, so you should either provide one of your own or back off.

I didn't think source is necessary for something that should be common knowledge for anyone posting in this sub, but: * https://www2.oberlin.edu/faculty/gkornbl/GJK/H103F05/Fed10annotated-A.htm - this is the original text. Read it. For more "modern" takes, see below. * https://www.heritage.org/american-founders/report/america-republic-not-democracy * https://www.theunion.com/news/twi/our-founding-fathers-wanted-a-republic-not-a-democracy/ * https://www.phoenix.k12.or.us/cms/lib/OR50000021/Centricity/Domain/1172/apol%20Distinguishing%20DemocracyRepublic.pdf * https://www.thoughtco.com/republic-vs-democracy-4169936

Is this a joke? The irony here is absurd. First, you say republicanism has elements of monarchy, when the definition of a republic is that it ain't a monarchy, then you say it has elements of democracy, while saying republics can't be democracies.

The only joke here is your lack of knowledge. Republic, in its original definition (by Polybius), means mixed constitution - which is to say, mixed government. It has elements of monarchy, aristocracy and democracy, without fully conforming to any of these systems. As a result, while normally changes in balance of power between the monarch, the aristoi and the demoi are violent because they involve changing the form of government itself, republic - in theory at least - allows for these changes in balance of power to be peaceful.

So republic indeed has elements of a monarchy, aristocracy and democracy, but it cannot be any of these, because then it is not a republic.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

If by "contemporary definitions" you mean how terms are usually used, there is no difference between the two

Contemporary means today, not hundreds of years ago. Most people today use the definitions described by Merriam-Webster.

But the article is also completely wrong, because modern arguments on "republic" vs "democracy" are in fact based on the definitions I have cited, and not on the Merriam-Webster definitions used in the article.

If you want'o have an argument in 2021: don't use outdated definitions as the foundation of your argument. Republicans need to say "America is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy" — and then yall'd be right.

source is necessary for something that should be common knowledge for anyone posting in this sub, but: *

Thanks for the sources! I really do appreciate it. Of course your tainted definition would come from Madison... As an Anti-Federalist, I have many disagreements with Madison over how the government ought'o be set up.

His definition of a republic is:

"The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended." (Madison)

If you go by this definition: yes, America is a republic and not a democracy — but you can't just change the definition of words to make your argument work. That's the no true Scotsman fallacy, where you keep changing the definition of a word and end up making it meaningless.

But what he's describing as a republic is actually a representative democracy, and what he describes as being a democracy is a direct democracy.

Madison is setting up a strawman argument against the Democratic-Republicans, who wanted suffrage for all male citizens, in an attempt to preserve the monopoly of land-owners over the election of politicians, pretending as if the DRs wanted direct democracy, when they really just wanted greater suffrage. (Which was achieved under Jackson.)

He even admits that he's only referring to direct democracy when he defines a democracy:

From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person

Remember that the Federalist papers had an agenda: the ratification of the Constitution, a replacement to the Articles of Confederation that centralized power in the federal government and took it away from the states. The Democratic-Republicans, or Anti-Federalists, didn't want the Constitution to be ratified, cause they believed in state's rights, so obviously a malicious Federalist would use a strawman argument to attack them.

in its original definition (by Polybius), means mixed constitution - which is to say, mixed government. It has elements of monarchy, aristocracy and democracy, without fully conforming to any of these systems.

That definition's even older that the founders'... why should we, in 2021, completely ignore the contemporary definition and cater to a man who died thousands of years ago? His definition doesn't make any sense today.

Your argument is literally just "I can change definitions to bend them to my political opinions." What if Democrats defined a republic as a dictatorship to prove that the US is a democracy? You couldn't effectively argue against that, cause they're using your own argument as the foundation of their own.

Your account's only a couple days old, so I'm certain you're a troll just trying to waste my time. Regardless, you've provided me a platform to address certain concerns, and for that I'm grateful, but I must not waste any more of my precious time arguing against logical fallacies.

[–]Aldarion 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Contemporary means today, not hundreds of years ago. Most people today use the definitions described by Merriam-Webster.

In which case, as I have said, article you have linked is pointless.

If you want'o have an argument in 2021: don't use outdated definitions as the foundation of your argument. Republicans need to say "America is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy" — and then yall'd be right.

First, something which is incorrect doesn't become correct because it is widely accepted.

Second, America is not even a representative democracy, it is a federal republic. And the fact that it is a federation means that United States, by themselves, simply cannot be a democracy. To make US a democracy, it would first have to become a unitary state or, at least, lose the electoral college in favour of direct vote. Which would be a bad idea.

Third, since we are talking about US specifically, I am using definition as outlined in Federalist No.10.

Thanks for the sources! I really do appreciate it. Of course your tainted definition would come from Madison... As an Anti-Federalist, I have many disagreements with Madison over how the government ought'o be set up.

I do not see how it is "tainted". And it is not based solely on Madison either: I have already pointed out Polybius. To me, Madison's usage was a logical continuation of Polybius differentiation between Greek "demokratia" and Roman "res publica".

If you go by this definition: yes, America is a republic and not a democracy — but you can't just change the definition of words to make your argument work. That's the no true Scotsman fallacy, where you keep changing the definition of a word and end up making it meaningless.

Using original definition is not "changing the definition" - and as I pointed out, the original goes way further back than Madison. He was merely using an already existing distinction and applying it to US conditions, rather than making up a new one. By your argument I would actually rather use "republic" and "democracy" than cater to people who make up definitions. Using original definitions would also make many things about US politics much clearer - such as what exactly is the point of contention between the Republicans and the Democrats (and also why the latter want to do away with the Electoral College and many other things set up to decentralize the power).

Also, "representative democracy" would, if we wanted to use clear definitions, still not be a republic. To have representative democracy, you would have to have the Parliament be the ultimate authority. But in the US especially, President still has significant power, and cannot be just walked over by the Parliament; and there is also the Supreme Court to consider. And authority is further divided between the federal government and state governments, with two fully capable of acting in opposition to each other. This happens to fit perfectly with Polybius' model of mixed government.

But what he's describing as a republic is actually a representative democracy, and what he describes as being a democracy is a direct democracy.

First, as I pointed out, it is slightly (or a lot) more complex than that.

Second, I prefer using original terms.

That definition's even older that the founders'... why should we, in 2021, completely ignore the contemporary definition and cater to a man who died thousands of years ago? His definition doesn't make any sense today.

To make things clearer. Because differences in ideology between the Democrats and Republicans happen to almost perfectly align to Polybius' definition. So you saying that "his definition doesn't make any sense today"... itself doesn't make any sense.

Your argument is literally just "I can change definitions to bend them to my political opinions."

Humour me here... what would you say are my political opinions, exactly?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I support your words here, Aldarion.

[–]Aldarion 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Your argument is to change definitions to bend your political opinions. Remind us all again, who here is the right-wing transgender?

Our words have meanings, and when the founders of any country used specific definitions when writing legal policy, then those specific definitions should be used. And if they are outdated, use a new word, or change the law. Don't play with definitions, you damned impurist.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Prove that Merriam-Webster.com, thefreedictionary.com, dictionary.cambridge.org, vocabulary.com, and oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com changed the definitions of "republic" and "democracy". I disproved your source; go ahead, disprove all five of mine... I'm waiting.

I'm simply citing reputable sources, meanwhile you ain't even an American — you're a Scottish Gypsy! I bet you couldn't even list the founders of the United States without looking it up. It seems like you're the one playing with definitions, you damned foreigner.

P.S. I'm a Centrist and you're right-wing, not the other way around.

[–]chadwickofwv 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

When you have to change the definition of words to fit your argument, you never had an argument in the first place.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly.