Unpopular opinion: parts of third-wave feminism directly led to the rise of trans ideology

submitted by Aureus from self.politics

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[–]sudd3nclar1ty 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (25 children)

Sorry mate, this is complete horseshit and smells alot like a men's rights advertisement. IMO, here's why.

Men and women are biologically different, but that doesn't manifest in a noticeable performance differences across many domains. For example, I love women's MMA. Women fight differently than men, but the fights are just as exciting. Same with women's football or math or playing the violin or sexual appetites.

However, particular male attributes, such as violence against women and what I call the privilege of certainty, really stand out. These characteristics of masculinity manifest in toxic, anti-social ways that feminism will eradicate with selective genetic pruning.

Men who blame women for their problems don't need to become women, they need to embrace social behaviors, empathy and communication. None of which fit the classical masculine profile promoted by popular cultures. Therefore do not blame feminists for men's problems with masculinity, blame the men who choose not to evolve.

TLDR; The problem is with socialization of gender roles, not with masculinity per se.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

'Men and women are biologically different, but that doesn't manifest in a noticeable performance differences across many domains. For example, I love women's MMA. Women fight differently than men, but the fights are just as exciting. '

What an absolute crock. I teach MMA and the level of womens MMA is much lower than mens. Something that is said during nearly every single womens MMA fight.

There is a reason why outrageous finishes like flying armbar's are much more likely to work in women's MMA than men's. And that is the massive disparity in technique.

You are talking nonsense. Women's MMA is far far behind men's technique wise. This is not even up for debate in circles which are actually educated and experienced on the topic.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

2020 FOTY Zhang vs. Joanna

You should not be teaching women with an attitude like that. As with bball and football, women's game emphasizes technique over brute force and speed. The exact opposite of your opinion.

Give me one example of an outrageous finish like masvidal vs askren. You are so full of shit amigo.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

'One swallow does not a summer make'.

A singular example does not define or describe or imply a trend.

False equivalency. And if you have to resort to personal attacks your argument is bunk.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

It's called a counter example to your bogus claim. This is how debates are won. Instead of whining about my rhetoric and tapping out, you could have made an actual argument with a premise, supporting facts and a conclusion.

I called you out because your initial point was nothing but hot air and undeserving of respect. Your second bite at the apple is even more limp. Don't know why I bother playing with such intellectual lightweights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

'Don't know why I bother playing with such intellectual lightweights.'

/r/IAmVerySmart is over on reddit.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Snark meet condescension. Condescension this is snark.

You want respect? Earn it by sincerely adding something meaningful to the conversation.

Otherwise fuck off :)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Imagine thinking that telling people to fuck off online has any effect what so ever.

So not only are you thick as a plank you are an arrogant twat to boot.

What a combo. Absolute winner. Keep being wrong and pig headed.

Tata now buttercup.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You still complaining snowflake? Just because I pushed back on your unsupported opinion? You can curl up into a little ball or make an argument. I'm here to push back on ideas and you appear to be out of those.

You can have the last word since your self esteem looks a bit low.

[–]whistlepig 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

the privilege of certainty,

You might as well be talking about modern femists or SJW's... That is hardly a masculine trait.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're certain that men don't suffer from the privilege of certainty? Ty for proving my point and here's some reading material to add weight to my opinion.

Two excerpts in reply. The first on increasing male suicide and the second on gender difference from (gag) Jordan motherfucking Peterson, who, when he sticks to research, is not nearly as much of a dick as he is on YT.

"You are the type of man who has chosen to isolate himself from town, health care and other people. Then you shoot yourself, and you’re hours from a trauma center.”

"It’s easy to bash white middled-aged men in America. As a member of that privileged group, I’ll admit that much of the bashing has been warranted: No group in the history of the world has been given and squandered more than the white man. Yet the American white man is responsible for enough suicides annually that Madison Square Garden could not hold all the victims"

"What really killed Hemingway was one of the things killing American men today: a macho fantasy of a man who needs no one but himself...Lingle fell in and out of love, with his most serious relationship ending when his girlfriend begged him for a last time to get help and he refused."

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/suicide-rate-america-white-men-841576/

"Where are the largest differences? Men are less agreeable (more competitive, harsher, tough-minded, skeptical, unsympathetic, critically-minded, independent, stubborn). This is in keeping with their proclivity, also documented cross-culturally,  to manifest higher rates of violence and antisocial or criminal behavior, such that incarceration rates for men vs women approximate 15:1. Women are higher in negative emotion, or neuroticism. They experience more anxiety, emotional pain, frustration, grief, self-conscious doubt and disappointment (something in keeping with their proclivity to experience depression at twice the rate of men). These differences appear to emerge at puberty...So even though men and women are more the same than they are different, the differences can matter."

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/

TLDR; Deep down I despise myself almost as much as I despise you

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

TLDR; Deep down I despise myself almost as much as I despise you

Pretty much sums up your post, thanks.

[–]whistlepig 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wanted to laugh.. but it makes me sad.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

+1 for creative interpretation

Interesting you noticed the part intended specifically for you. What a good boy. Here's a treat for the good boy. Run along now and play with your trucks vroom vroom, the adults are talking. :)

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Men and women are biologically different, but that doesn't manifest in a noticeable performance differences across many domains. For example, I love women's MMA. Women fight differently than men, but the fights are just as exciting. Same with women's football or math or playing the violin or sexual appetites.

Do you people have upvote parties for this mind-numbingly stupid nonsense?

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lawdy how many misogynists reply with 'you people' blah blah nonsense. If you have an argument, bring it clown. This incoherent whining is fucking boring you twit.

Debate me. Let's see that big brain do some work.

EDIT: foul language. My apologies this comment was super obnoxious of me.

[–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Remember that there is a large radfem presence on the site now, and this is a thread on the front page that is blaming feminists for the problem of trans activism. This is a departure from the popular view that TRAs exist because men are privileged because of patriarchy.

I doubt there was any coordination, it's more likely that any radfem reading this upvoted because it tries to turn it back around and say men are the problem. And those same radfems are unlikely to know enough about MMA to have caught this nonsense.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Remember that there is a large radfem presence on the site now

Good! I hope they choke on every word I write.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

These characteristics of masculinity manifest in toxic, anti-social ways that feminism will eradicate with selective genetic pruning.

Can you expand upon this?

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No offspring with these anti-social characteristics bc healthy women won't couple with toxic masculinity. Darwin called it 'aesthetic selection' when female choice in a species shapes male attributes and behaviors.

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you see yourself as at the vanguard of this shift?

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

More of a janitor just taking out the garbage actually.

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Same with women's football or math or playing the violin or sexual appetites.

Nope. Testosterone increases libido.

The problem is with socialization of gender roles,

Except that these preferences appear in the standard pattern in people even when their sex is obscured by an intersex condition and raised as the other sex.

Prenatal androgens affect play behaviour and aggression as well as sexual orientation.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sexual appetite cannot be reduced to mere testosterone - your flat negation followed by a narrow male-centric response is a comically underwhelming introduction. Let's see what else you got.

Gender socialization using intersex argument. Ok, 0.1% of the population born intersex and most want informed consent at age of majority rather than be butchered by doctors at birth. This has nothing to do with toxic masculinity or anything else I said. Random.

More random tiny perturbations of prebirth hormones that proves...nothing with respect to toxic masculinity the world over. Don't blame feminists for men's failure to take responsibility for evolving more appropriate social behaviors.

"The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression."

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So... Half of that was irrelevant to what I posted (what does informed consent have anything to do with this?)

My point was that kids born looking like girls, raised as girls, but with normal male testosterone levels in the womb... Act like males. Proof the behaviour is innate not learned.

re random tiny perturbations of prebirth hormones that proves...nothing with respect to toxic masculinity the world over

They aren't random though, it's predictable and kids that don't know they are male still act like males re aggression and play patterns.

Give female embryos male testosterone levels and they behave like males.

Instead of constantly complaining about male behaviour, following the well disproven socialisation theory, which makes zero difference to how they behave, we should be focusing on removing violent males from circulation on a more permanent basis. Or banging it into the heads of teenage boys they will be in a world of hell if the misbehave and finding ways to refocus thier aggression.

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant

We see the same aggression and dominance in other primates. In every human culture.

Don't blame feminists for men's failure to take responsibility for evolving more appropriate social behaviors.

I never did. You see things that were not written in the text and not understand what was there.

I'm also a woman. I also have PCOS and I'm familiar with the effects of testosterone on libido.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I think we are in agreement on most of this as I'm a big believer in biology and the influence of hormones on male violence. I am drifting towards socialization however, due in no small parts to posts like this. Her in depth explanation in one of the comments is fascinating.

Ty for explaining your experience. The situation with PCOS is challenging and I wish you the best.

Edit link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/i7nlsf/öcalan_says_that_sexism_is_one_of_the_main/