Mental gymnastics...

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[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

Why don't you read your Bible? According to Exodus 21:22-23, the killing of an unborn fetus is worth less than the killing of the mother. If the mother dies, "a life for a life" is invoked. If she miscarriages due to being attacked, there is only a fine.

The Bible is absolutely clear: the fetus is not an independent human life, and abortion is not homicide or murder. At worst, it is property damage.

Fetuses aren't babies. A clump of cells is not a human being, it is a clump of cells. A heartbeat on its own means nothing. Rats have heartbeats.

When the fetus is capable of surviving on its own, outside of the womb, without extraordinary medical intervention, then it deserves some level of protection as a potential human being. Until then, it is just a part of the woman's body, and only the woman gets to say whether it is a welcome fetus being nurtured from her body or an unwelcome parasite sucking her life away.

[–]Alienhunter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"only the woman gets to say whether it is a welcome fetus being nurtured from her body or an unwelcome parasite sucking her life away."

Ephesians 5:22-24

22 Wives, obey your husbands as you obey the Lord.

23 The husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church people. The church is his body and he saved it.

24 Wives should obey their husbands in everything, just as the church people obey Christ.

Sorry mate Bible disagrees with you husband gets the say not the woman.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're funny. Imagine giving a fuck what the invisible friend of a bunch of goat-fucking ancient desert barbarians thinks.

[–]Alienhunter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Says the person who is using the bible to justify their position?

If you don't give a fuck what they think why you quoting their book mate?

[–]Evola 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He's obviously jewish seen as he only pulled scripture from the Torah. You need to update your Jdar.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

You say the same unborn child could be a fetus or a parasite, depending on the opinion of the mother. Most pregnant women consented to having sex with a man that caused their egg to become fertilized and most women are aware that is how babies are formed. So how could she call the unborn child a parasite? The child did not force the parents to have sex. This is the same as a woman that ate food and wondered how her belly got full. What is in her belly? Food? Or something else, because she has some hateful opinion for what is inside of her body?

Here is the scripture cited:

~

Exodus

21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

~

So, if you want to stick to the old law, an abortionist could legally get a beating, or any other punishment, as determined by the husband, PLUS the fine imposed by judges.

And for those women who die from abortion complications, and it does happen, those abortionists would be executed.

God's word shows that abortion is a form of satanic sacrifice.

~

Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

~

What is the disposal method today for aborted babies? Sometimes their bodies are literally burned in fire. But God's word clearly prohibits the burning of our seed. You cannot truthfully use God's word to justify abortion.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Most pregnant women consented to having sex with a man

So let's just ignore those who didn't, shall we, and compound the abuse and trauma they already suffered? How very christian of you 😒

Let's go back to consent. Every time I eat food, I risk getting food poisoning. Does that mean I consent to being poisoned if I eat out? Obviously not. If I drive on the road, I run the risk of somebody crashing into me and killing me. Does that mean I consent to being run into? Clearly not.

"If you didn't want to almost die from food poisoning, you shouldn't have eaten."

Having sex does not mean you are ready, willing or able to be a parent, or that you consent to pregnancy.

Alone of all of god's creations, human beings are capable of planning their families using whatever combination of methods physically available. Animals mate, and have no control over whether they get pregnant, and if so, whether they carry the fetus to term. We are not just animals, we have the ability to plan their family. Consenting to sex is not consenting to nine months pregnancy followed by 18 years of raising a child and teenager.

So, if you want to stick to the old law, an abortionist could legally get a beating

Only if that abortionist performed an abortion without the consent of the woman. That would be assault.

If you go to a surgeon to have a gangrenous leg amputated, that is not assault and grievous bodily harm. If you allow a friend to borrow your car, that is not theft.

those women who die from abortion complications

All medical procedures carry some risk.

God's word shows that abortion is a form of satanic sacrifice.

Got an actual reference in scripture for that, or are you just repeating the lies you have been taught?

You are doing the Devil's work by repeating lies about scripture, and doing real harm: women who will unnecessarily die from medical complications because of abortion bans, unwanted babies who will be grow up to be troubled criminals, all fodder for the Devil. Whose side are you on?

God's word clearly prohibits the burning of our seed.

The bible does not prohibit cremation.

The Bible does not prohibit abortion either. Don't take my word for it: read it yourself, and you will find nothing, not one single word, that prohibits or condemns abortion for family planning. Child sacrifice to worship foreign gods? Prohibited. Assaulting a woman and causing her to miscarry against her will? A crime. But abortion, nothing.

The New Testament says nothing about abortion, and the Old Testament is conflicted about the status of babies and children. It is a Satanic lie that has convinced Christians that the Bible prohibits abortion.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So let's just ignore those who didn't, shall we, and compound the abuse and trauma they already suffered?

This is what you say, and if you support abortion, that is exactly the view you have toward the souls of the unborn. Why should their lives be terminated? What wrong have they done? They are completely innocent. They cannot defend themselves. They are the weakest of our society, but who will speak up for them? They cannot expect your help if you support their destruction. Those that support death should remember their views when they find themselves weak and vulnerable, and no longer valued by society. Then who will defend them? God has a law that will be fulfilled: whatsoever a man sows, that shall he reap. If you sow the seed of death, you shall reap the fruit of death, unless you repent and turn to Jesus, that you might live.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why should their lives be terminated? What wrong have they done? They are completely innocent.

An embryo or fetus too young to survive outside of the womb without heroic and unnatural medical care is not a "they". A fetus is no more "innocent" than is a kidney. They have no hopes or dreams or fears because they are not people. They might someday grow to be a person, but they are no more a person than this is a chicken.

There is no Biblical justification for a ban on abortion. Even third-trimester abortion is permitted by the Bible. Stop twisting the Bible. Whether you are doing it out of a foolish sentimentally, or to prove you are Holier and More Virtuous than everyone else, or out of a sick and twisted desire to hurt women, that's up to you. But everytime you twist scripture you inch closer to hell.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you even believe in a hell, or in a God that would like to save man from it?

I already reminded you that God said, Thou shalt not kill. I support life. You are the one who supports death, for the unborn, and twist the scriptures to support your desire for death.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

God said, Thou shalt not kill. I support life.

And that's why God told the Israelites to wage war against the Amalekites, the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Philistines, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, all of whom were all to be exterminated to the last man, woman, and child.

That's why God killed the innocent first born children of the Egyptians, after hardening Pharoah's heart so that God had an excuse to visit more plagues of Egypt. That's why Jesus came "not to bring peace, but bearing a sword".

That is why God killed Lot's wife, turning her into a pillar of salt, for the heinous crime of... looking back over her shoulder as she fled from her home which was being destroyed. While Lot, who offered up his own daughter to be gang-raped, is considered a Righteous Man.

Speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah, God killed all the inhabitants of the city for the sins of a few, including innocent babies and the unborn. And let's not forget that God drowned the entire world, again including innocent babies and the unborn.

This is why the Bible says that those who are herem ("proscribed") they are to be destroyed.

This is why the punishment for the daughter of a priest who becomes a prostitute is to be burned alive -- and if the priest fails to burn his own daughter alive, he is to be killed (Leviticus 21:9). God also orders the killing of women who cannot prove that they were virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22). This is why God sends a plague which kills 70,000 Israelites -- including innocent babies and the unborn -- for King David's heinous sin of... taking a census.

When Phineas murdered in cold blood an Israelite and his Midianite girlfriend, God was so pleased by this double murder that He gives Phineas “My pact of friendship” and declares that Phineas and all his descendants as His priests for all time. He then stopped the deadly plague that He had sent to kill 24,000 Israelites, including innocent babies and the unborn. Afterwards, Moses sends his army to murder five Midianite kings, and slaughter all the Midianite men. Moses, incensed that his army brought back the women and children alive, orders them to murder the boy children and all women except the virgins. Moses is another Righteous Man.

Maybe you shouldn't call yourself a Christian if you don't know what the Bible actually says.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

The Bible does not prohibit abortion either.

There are many specific forms of killing that are not named in the Bible, but God covers them all in one commandment that he engraved in stone:

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

And in the New Testament, Jesus is recorded giving the Royal Law:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Would you like for men to kill you when you are considered a nuisance and unwanted?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The commandments of a man spouting gibberish after getting lost on a mountain and inhaling the smoke of a hallucinogenic bush on fire, then came back declaring that God gave him tablets which he mysteriously lost and were never recovered, and which he appeared to have revised several times sometime after.

Nor does the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill" explain exactly what this means. Does it mean that you should not commit intentional murder? Or is involuntary manslaughter included? Moses did not seem to mind ordering his people to take up arms and kill his fellow man the same day of his return from the psychedelic hills.

The word of the Bible is questionable. https://youtu.be/v-63cTYJDCA

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You mock the word of God. Do you actually expect a response?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I mock the credibility of man who wrote the words you refer to. To deny me a response only legitimises my argument.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you do not believe God's word, why would you believe mine? If you were seeking the truth out of a sincere desire for it, you would find it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why would you be a more credible man than the man who claimed to write the words of a god? To remain truly free, is to be skeptical of the words of all people.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is right to be skeptical and ask questions, and doing so with a sincere desire for truth will lead you to it, and the truth shall make you free.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

The rest of the Bible: kill witches, kill your enemies, kill criminals, kill anyone who touches the Arc of the Covenant (God will do that for you), kill innocent people from another tribe because God wants you to steal their land and enslave their women and children, kill your child because God wants a sacrifice (God to Abraham: nah, just kidding, LOL -- God to Jephthah: did I fucking stutter?).

Even Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34).

The prohibition against killing only applies to people, and even then God allows exceptions. We kill plants and animals and insects a thousand times a day and nobody even blinks. A fetus is not a person.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Are you God's judge? You defend the right to kill the unborn, but then you seem to have a problem with God's judgments. The unborn are innocent. Witches and criminals are not. How about we leave the judgments up to the Judge? He commands us to not avenge ourselves, but to let God repay.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Those that support killing the innocent... the unborn children... should fear God's vengeance.

You leap to a conclusion that a baby in its mother's womb is not a person. You were once that weak and helpless. So does that mean you are not a person? Or, at what time did you become a person? Are you sure you are a living person even now?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Are you God's judge?

Maybe someone should be.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is good to examine God's word with the intention of finding the truth, but it is not wise to try to be God's judge. God is already the most perfect being with far more wisdom than us. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Perfection shouldn't come with genocidal rage and impossible demands such as to police thought crime. This god you speak of is a tyrant and a dictator hell-bent on causing death and suffering. The same god would have you believe you are born in sin and must spend your entire life repenting and begging on your knees for forgiveness, it is despicable to act as though this were normal behaviour, let alone to refer to this manic as perfect.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I read your accusations against the God of the living, then I looked at your chosen username... I'm done with you. I am also done arguing with the guy that had his face eaten by weavils. You can defend yourself when it is time for you to give account for your life: how you thought, spoke, and acted. But for those of us that repent, we have Jesus the Lord as our mediator.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You leap to a conclusion that a baby in its mother's womb is not a person.

Damn straight. You would have to be under some some sort of demonic possession to think that this is a person.

You were once that weak and helpless. So does that mean you are not a person?

That was a very long time ago. What I am now is not what I was then. Things change. Once upon a time there was a blob of cells that was not a person, it grew and eventually became a person -- me -- and some day I shall die and cease to be a person again. As the Bible says, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Every person in history was once not a person, and shall return to not being a person.

Or, at what time did you become a person?

It was a gradual process, in the same way that a pile of raw materials (timber, bricks, plaster, paint) will become a house and then a home. This is not a house even if it may become one eventually. This is not an oak tree.

There is no absolute point where a fetus becomes a baby, but I think a reasonable legal fiction is the moment the newborn takes its first breath. I am even satisfied that we offer the unborn fetus protection as an honorary person during the third-trimester, provided the mother -- a real, actual person -- is not in any danger.

What I do not accept under any circumstances is the Virtue Signalling Holier Than Thous who will sacrifice real, living actual people so that they can hypocritically and dishonestly pretend to care for fetuses which are already all but dead in the womb, or have no chance of survival.

Actual people are more important than fetuses which are at best only a potential person, and often are not even that, if the fetus has no chance of survival.

[–]Alienhunter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD."

This isn't a reference to abortion. Rather it's a reference to the Pagan god Molech and not allowing your children to participate, either in a form of human sacrifice, or some kind of pagan dedication ritual (the specifics of what passing through the fire involves are unclear), however it is not referencing abortion.

[–]In-the-clouds[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The scripture did not call it abortion, but called the evil act passing seed through fire. I agree with you that details are lacking. But if people today remove the unborn from the womb and burn the body in an incinerator, how is that significantly different? Do you think God would approve? Would this act not instead delight the satanic forces? The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and when people destroy the fruit of the womb, or their seed, they are doing the work of a devil even if they have no spiritual beliefs.