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[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Yeah, we have good numbers since the red cross was allowed observers in the camps.

https://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

Much harder to know how many died in less documented events, like the Holodomor.

https://borgenproject.org/holodomor-genocide/

Source of that image: Documents sur l'activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945 (Geneva, 1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC during the Second World War (Geneva, 1947). The team of authors, headed by Frédéric Siordet, explained in the opening pages of the Report that their objective, in the tradition of the Red Cross, had been strict political neutrality.

[–]Anticapitalist 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

we have good numbers since the red cross was allowed observers in the camps.

The Red Cross said that's bullshit. The Red Cross (the ICRC) denies that they ever made those statistics:

  • "In the 1978 official bulletin, entitled "False Propaganda", the ICRC denounced Holocaust denial and confirmed that the agency "Never published—or even compiled—statistics of this kind which are being falsely attributed to it" and stated that its mission was "to help war victims, not to count them",[84][85][86] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[84][86] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[84][86] and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Marou, you are denying the holocaust with out of context info. I see holocaust deniers using that same image all the time.

Maybe you read this from some neo-nazis and didn't realize how vulgar this is, but you are using the very cruel and irrational talking points of nazis.

/u/Buri, thank you for explaining that the holocaust is not a conspiracy theory.

I really hope this website doesn't get taken over by the nazi/kkk people like what happened to voat.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

The burden is on you to prove the holocaust not the revisionists to disprove it.

You just said yourself that the red cross is not a reliable source because they claim to have not gone in all the camps. So the burden on you to provide a reliable source that went into all the camps and confirms the 6 million and confirms that they weren't from starvation and disease from German infrastructure and supply lines breaking down from allied bombing (the more likely scenario and the DOCUMENTED scenario).

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

and confirms the 6 million and confirms that they weren't starvation

Actually the people running the death camps, shooting the children, etc were not starving to death. This is all the evidence that is needed to show these were (of course) death camps.

so the burden on you to provide a reliable source that went into all the camps

Among things, it was a nazi estimate that they murdered 6 million jews. Plus it's an estimate of the people who disappeared.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Among things, it was a nazi estimate that they murdered 6 million jews. Plus it's an estimate of the people who disappeared.

source.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

source.

Are you not reading from the like 10 times I posted it already?

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

[–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

LMAO. You just gave me a college paper on Holocaust denial. Not even written by historians. The paper is MLA citation. It's not even Turabian. LMAO! Holy shit this made my day.

You trolls are sneaking in to operate on saidit and your lucky that I'm not on here more often to expose you. If this were reddit I would have responded faster. Eventually I will get over to this site more.

OK here's the redpill dump just in case people are still reading this thread. I've now tagged you as jew shill and will be monitoring your presence on saidit and commenting whenever I can to expose your bullshit.

Here's the dump

----start dump of previous discussion reply---

I think a lot of Jews did die in ww2 due to crimes against humanity.

Holocaust revisionists do not deny that jews died in Europe during ww2 and in some cases were totally innocent (neither spies nor combatants).

Now much of the official holocaust narrative is BS, gas chambers, mengele's human experiments and the shower room stuff were clearly allied atrocity propaganda

That's what the holocaust is and if you said what you just said publicly you'd be called a holocaust denier and could possible be jailed in more than a dozen countries. The holocaust isn't a historical event up for adjustment and debate like other historical event. It's an industry and a narrative and the only people allowed to adjust it and correct it are a group of 11 or so approved historians.

But I think a lot of Jews did disproportionately die due to other reasons. The causes Jews died in millions(my estimate was that 4.9 million Jews died) are

Jews dying for 'other reasons' is again not disputed by revisionists. It's actually a key component of holocaust revisionism. You're 4.9 number is high though. The highest I've heard from a credible source is 2.3 from Irving and he's not particularly wedded to that number. My guess is 500-750k died and half of those were in some way probably tied into spying, Marxist subversion and in a fair court the nat socs could probably argue and prove they were combatants. The other half died from typhus, starvation and yes some probably died from cruelty/murder in a chaotic war theater. In fact this is why there were so many Jews in concentration camps. They sought out the camps to be protected from the lawlessness and hostility of war.

Forced labor: Its no secret that the Germans used slave labor to build factories, weapons and infrastructure.

Ok right of the bat I'm going to stop you. I don't think you've actually engaged with the revisionist sources. This isn't slave labor. This is prison labor. That's a HUGE difference. Many Jews choose not to work in camps and instead just engaged in the maintenance and running of the camp accouterments. The alternative was living in German society that was hostile to them for conspiring to bring the Americans into WWI. I'm not really sure how much I can really engage with you here if you haven't actually dug down on the revisionist arguments.

Let me catch you up on the revisionist sources.

First there's David Cole (jewish) who looked at aushwitz. Here's a shortened video on his findings.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/fH3nQI45kiQW/

The next big guy is of course Earnst Zundel. Here's an outstanding interview he did with an Israeli. LOTs of intersting stuff in this doc. I highly recommend you take the time to listen.

https://archive.org/details/ErnstZundelInterviewedByAnIsraeliJournalist1996G

Next here's a thread that caused quite a stir on debatealtright.

https://old.reddit.com/r/DebateAltRight/comments/9bi1rv/the_holocaust_did_not_happen/

I'd encourage you to read the unz article that reddit deleted from the thread.

http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-holocaust-denial/

Then after you've looked at the unz article you might want to read through the comments in the thread.

The Japanese did it and prisons do this today. 3 million Soviet pows simply died in the camps. It makes no sense that Jews wouldn't too

Again, revisionists do not deny Jews died in camps. How many and how and whether or not is was a directed cleansing 'plan' by nat soc elites is where all the drama is.

Soviets, Japanese, Germans, and Americans all run war camps very differently. To conflate them is a bit silly. We also have the problem that there's a VERY high incentive for governments to lie about what they do to prisoners so ALL gov sources and gov histories about these war camps need closely examined and cross referenced. Here's a look at what people on the ground have shared about the German camp system.

https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/

I think many died due to forced labor as the Germans worked them to death or took them on death marches.

You'd need to provide a source for this. The reports, images and video in the deprogramingcourse website refute this 'worked to death' claim. Jews themselves refute this work to death claim. There are thousands talking about playing in the 'death camp' symphony or putting on plays.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/EsXm99fExImK/

If the survivors are to be believed then certainly the ones talking about atrocities should be offset by the ones talking about brothels and orchestras so that neutral observers can make an informed decision. This is how you shape consensus; this is how you manufacture consent. You simply hand select the testimonies that fit the narrative. Finkelstein talks about this opinion manufacturing industry is his book The Holocaust Industry.

And let's not even get into all of the outlandish claims by the survivors who were promoted.

https://media.8ch.net/file_store/636e21115360cec3bb795ddeee5fc286f7de5b63a61cffdde1718968ade2b26d.jpg

Starvation: This is the real killer, nearly 3 million Soviet POWs died, most of them from starvation and the same is true for the Jews.

Again. Starvation is not denied by revisionists. It's the how and why. Most starvation in the camps comes as the end of the war and it was due to supply line disruption from allied bombing. Obviously Germans are going to prioritize German soldiers in the field and German families in the Reich over Jews and war prisoners. If you consider that ethnic cleansing so be it but IMO it's just a result of the chaos at the end of the war and the immoral civilian bombing started by Churchill. Stalin on the other hand starved civilians and prisoners in a more strategic/corporal way.

If you want to see agressive ethnic cleansing through starvation read about the Rhind Meadows.

https://ww2gravestone.com/an-american-rhine-meadows-camp-guard-speaks-out/

That's what weaponized starvation encampment looks like. If Hitler had those aspiration he could have started those camps in '39 or even earlier and there's no evidence of that.

Germans confiscated food from the occupied territories to feed their own. This caused food shortage for the camp prisoners who were allowed to stave. Over ten million people in German occupied lands died in starvation, its only rational that the Jews suffered this too.

Ah. That's what you do in war but that's also a result of farm production going way down because farmers where out fighting war. There's not only less food but armies (on all side) confiscate the food. Yes Jews certainly died from this war famine like everybody else but the world almanac of Jewish population does not reflect 6, 5, or even 4 million Jews dying during this period.

https://media.8ch.net/file_store/0558867345c1855aaefaa177751d9a345b323c1cedd7a9015c4aabef45773ac7.jpg

Yet on the other hand we do see Jewish population going up in British Palestine, the United States, Britain, etc. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see what's going on here.

Shootings and persecutions: Its no secret that the Einsatzgruppen in tandem with local militias shot communists, Jews and partisans.

And why not? They had literally stood in the streets of Germany with machines guns years earlier not to mentioned collaborated with foreign nations to undermine the Reich or do you not believe in a sovereign nations right to execute traitors?

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1405992204336.jpg

The SS had a penchant for mass murders and shootings, think of malmedy, Wormhoudt and countless other examples.

The SS had a penchant for winning a conflict. The SS was a military unit. Killing people is part of winning wars. I know you understand European history. I've seen you write detailed posts about European wars/conflicts/battles. What's up with all this 'murder' language. Show me a nation that gives up it ability to execute traitors/enemies/combatants/subversives and I will show you a nation that's about to collapse and be taken over by another nation willing to 'murder.'

As they hated Jews more than all else it makes no sense that they'd make an exception to them, they didn't flinch at killing fellow Germanic English, forget Jews.

This is a HUGE misconception. Antisemitism in Germany was almost unheard of before the Treaty of Versailles and the German diplomats learning about the Balfour declaration. You'd think if there was so much German 'antisemitism' then Jews wouldn't have been allowed to own so much industry, media and academic seats in German society. In fact there are some eerie parallels with American society.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

PART II

Finally there's another reason, the number of Jews don't add up, there were 13 million Jews in 1939, today there are about 14 million, there's no way a group with good birth rates failed to increase their population at all in 80 years, there was a mass culling of Jews.

Again revisioninsts don't disagree with jews dying in Europe and jews being displace from Germany. They disagree with the 'culling' language. Hitler explicity stated he wanted Jews out of europe and attempted to find places to peacefully resettlethem. Why would someone who wants to cull jews from the earth work to resettle them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Why would a guy who was constantly asked by subordinates what to do with the Jews continue to issue orders not to harm them and to wait until the war is over?

This post of yours Scythian is highly suspicious. I'd strongly encourage you to go through these materials. Please do not continue to misrepresent what revisionists are saying. It's too common a tactic of our enemy. You wouldn't want to be confused with our enemy now would you?

---more JQ discussion stuff here =-------->

https://pastebin.com/xKC7Y8gT

https://pastebin.com/jtsd9YEz

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

[emotions]

Your emotions like "lol i don't consider that guy a historian!!1" are irrelevant. Here's another source:

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/6-million-where-is-the-figure-from-1.5319546

I know you'll say "but they're jews so it's all a conspiracy!11".

. Yes Jews certainly died from this war famine like everybody else

Don't lie. The people running the death camps and shooting the jewish children weren't starving like that.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't mind jewish sources. Ron Unz is one of my favorite news sites. Many revisionists are jewish. I grew up very close with a Ashkenazi family and my best friend is also Jewish.

What I mind is you just posting news articles. You need to share hard evidence vetted by trained historians. Again, burden of proof is on you to prove a positive not me or other revisionists to prove a negative.

The reality here is that Jews have made the holocaust a cultural artifact and integrated it into their ethnic expression and even their spiritual zeitgeist. There's nothing a trained historian can do to dismiss someones religious belief.

Black science guy Neil Degrass Tyson always says that when he's debating a fervent flat earther or creationists he asks them if there's any evidence that can be produced that will make them change their mind. If the answer it 'no' it's really not worth debating. I've found that with a large bulk of holocaustianity followers this is also the case. You kind of remind me of the Israeli that interviewed Ernst Zundel back in the 90's. By the end of the discussion you could tell the the Israeli was basically convinced but it simply didn't matter to him. The holocaust was too central to his worldview and the interview progressed into other weird arenas. It's worth watching in it's entirety if you get a chance.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Incorrect. Really you are the revisionist according to like 99.9999% of the "trained historians" in the world. I don't mean that "the majority is true", I mean according to your own standard (people called "trained historians") that you are the revisionist.

And what is the value of your attack on the news website? Nothing. It's just a common logical fallacy used when people have no rational evidence for their beliefs.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

That source is based on hearsay. Hoetll is known liar, hoaxer and fabricator. THis is not evidence for 6 million figure. I'm a little concerned on why you would think this is proof of the figure.

https://saidit.net/s/news/comments/19vs/a_principal_in_florida_said_he_couldnt_confirm/2upb

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

That source is based on hearsay. Hoetll is known liar, hoaxer and fabricator.

Actually, practically any time a political figure is quoted (eg by people in the media) you could call it "hearsay" as long as there was no video of it.

And (in contrast) if there was audio/video of this conversation you would call it edited and fabricated "by the jews!!!1"

I showed you endless photos of the holocaust and it's train system which shows it was a massive killing system for killing many millions of people, and you deny it like "photos are a jewish conspiracy theory!!1 because jews!!11"

I even show the photos are from multiple sides (eg multiple states) and they all match.

And what is your "argument?" It's essentially this: "photos ain't real !111 Because Jews !!!1"

THis is not evidence for 6 million figure. I'm a little concerned on why you would think this is proof of the figure.

That's not even why I quoted it. There's a bunch of people saying that the number 6m was commonly used for jews for religious reasons.

But in reality.. Even if that's true (that the number 6m was used a lot by jews) that's irrelevant if the estimate of 6m jews killed came from the nazis.

Btw, in your images (about how commonly the 6m number was used) you're often just quoting coincidences.

  • eg the estimated 6m population of jews in the ukraine.

  • Or in poland,

  • etc