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[–]Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

From this blog:

Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, said:

These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures” (Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15)

Nobody denies the persecution of Jews but the Holocaust story is indeed exaggerated. Reality tells us what is true, science backs this reality, but belief is without proof and belief in a miracle that has been proven fraudulent is a hard pill to swallow. The holocaust by definition is sacrifice through fire. So, did 6 million Jews die via sacrifice through fire?

Some other classic quotes:

<Truth is no defence”

As in, one should never question a known known, even if it might not be true. The sinisterness and ferocity of the regime is more than enough evidence for truth to be inverted.

And:

It is not necessary to ask how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was possible technically since it took place. That is the necessary point of departure for any historical inquiry on this subject. It is our function simply to recall that truth: There as not, there cannot be, any debate about the existence of the gas chambers.” ~ Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 historians.

Will comment [on] one popular Holocaust denial claim, which I find incorrect:

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

I found a report with very similar numbers. It was used in East Germany:

http://www.renegadetribune.com/international-red-cross-report-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/

There is an image of it.   The IRC report of 1947 must have been based on similar information.


1) Look up Majdanek, it says 6,920 deaths. Then look up the following death book from the Majdanek museum:

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=32153

The text says about 7,000 deaths. So these figures match, but the death book is deaths in the time June 8 to September 28, 1942.

Clearly, the report is based on partial data from Majdanek, only the death books from June 8 to September 28, 1942. Majdanek was captured almost intact, so there are all archives. They have been carefully studied. The official death toll is 78,000 of whom 59,000 are Jews.


2) Look up Auschwitz, the report says 52,589. Then you wonder where did the report get this number as Soviets hid the archives of Auschwitz.

The archives were found much later. They have partial death books, which contain 68,864 names. Thus, the authors of the report did not have these death books. Their number, though given as precise, is incorrect.


3) Then notice that the report does not have figures for camps that were not any more in existence when Allied conquered Germany. There are missing Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belcez. There is also missing Theresienstadt. There are missing ghettos of Warsaw and Lodz, as are all work camps in Poland. There is missing the whole area of the Soviet union of 1941.


4) Look up the figure of Mauthausen. The report gives it as 77,727. You wonder why Mauthausen was so much worse than the other camps. This is because the report figure matches the presently given death toll only for the camp of Mauthausen. The normal figure given for that camp is 80,000.


For all these reasons, the IRC report is unreliable. But the essential issue is that it does not have all Jewish deaths. It is only National Socialist concentration camps, all but 2 in Germany, omitting 4 important concentration camps in Poland, two large ghettos and a large number of small work camps.

Compare the figures in the East German report to the following figures from each concentration camp web pages. Notice, none of these are death camps, none had alleged gas chambers:

  • Bergen-Belsen 0.05 million,

  • Buchenwaldt 0.05,

  • Ravensbruk some 0.09,

  • Mauthausen maybe 0.08 (mostly non-Jews),

  • Flossenberg 0.03,

  • Dachau 0.027 its subcamp 0.01.

The rest, that is Gross-Rosen, Stutthof, Sachenhausen, Neuengammen, Natzweiler, Mittelbau, etc. together make maybe 0.05.

These all sum to 0.39 million.


From the East German report we can deduce that these death tolls, that are given in the web sites of concentration camps in Germany, are likely to be correct. That is, the figures in the East German report and the IRC report were obtained from death books that remained in the camps when the Allied arrived, as not all books remained (military personnel has to burn documents so that the enemy does not get them), the death tolls are only partial. But the figure for Mauthausen is 77,0000.

Apparently in this camp all death books were left behind. Camps in Germany were similar, so their death ratios should be similar. Scaling the number of prisoners in Mauthausen to the size of the other camps in Germany we can get good estimates to the death toll in the other camps.

It seems to lead to figures that are close to the official numbers. Thus, the death tolls in camps in Germany are as in the official figures. Of Poland, there were the following concentration camps:

Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec.

The East German report is not much use as it reports only Majdanek (from partial death books) and Auschwitz (from an unknown, but incorrect source). But there is good information from Majdanek, as most of the camp archives were obtained (but only partial death books). From the partial death books for a period of less than 4 months (7000) we can verify that Kola’s estimate 78,000, of whom 59,000 Jews, is very probable. The other camps in Poland are likely to have similar death ratios.

Thus, estimating death tolls in concentration camps is not in any way impossible. It does not give 6 million. For Nazi concentration camps alone the Jewish death toll is roughly 600,000, not half of 277,000.

But adding other deaths the total gets considerably higher.

You must add deaths in ghettos and work camps in Poland (170,000) and in war 1939+ghetto uprising and POW camps (some 50,000), shootings in Yugoslavia (58,000), shootings by Einsatzgruppen and SS divisions (some 100,000), deaths in work camps and ghettos in Ukraine, and an estimate how many died in ghettos and camps in Ukraine in German hands. Adding about 850,000 deaths in Soviet hands and 160,000 in Romania raise the total to 2-2.5 million. The majority of these deaths are not the result of an alleged extermination program. [And as revisionists have stated time and time again, they do not deny the executions of Jews and the rounding up of Jews to be used for slave labor or imprisoned in concentration camps. They do not advocate or try to whitewash the crimes of the National Socialists, whether it be their coordinated euthanasia program of disabled people, or the imprisonment of homosexuals, communists, Jews, and work shy persons. Revisionists are, however, skeptical about the final solution narrative, the six million figure and the use of gas chambers.]


AJY statistics is based on Soviet figures and these figures are not reliable. A very good argument can be made that the Soviet figure was 1 million smaller in 1939 and about 1 million higher in 1948 than what the Soviets told. Doing these corrections you get 2.5 million as the Jewish death toll. I do not see any reason why anybody should be put to jail for proposing these corrections to the Soviet figures. We exactly know that Soviet figures were simply Soviet guesses, not based on valid census data.


I personally do not have any problem in believing in the 6 million figure in case the state threatens with a prison sentence.

It is simply a demand to believe in a miracle: by arithmetics the 6 million figure is not possible, but as a miracle of God could have more Jews die than there were, why not?

Earlier in the Roman Empire you had to believe that Caesar was a god, and if you refused to believe it, you were killed. Then you were killed if you did not believe in some Church dogma. Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

But I guess today in Europe one is allowed to both believe in a religious truth and to believe in a scientific truth at the same time, even if they are in contradiction. I mean, we can believe that God created Adam and at the same time believe in humans coming from Africa. A contradiction, but you are allowed to believe in a contradiction.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

Again, the Red Cross said that's bullshit. The Red Cross (the ICRC) denies that they ever made those statistics:

  • "In the 1978 official bulletin, entitled "False Propaganda", the ICRC denounced Holocaust denial and confirmed that the agency "Never published—or even compiled—statistics of this kind which are being falsely attributed to it" and stated that its mission was "to help war victims, not to count them",[84][85][86] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[84][86] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[84][86] and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

Actually that number came from the Nazis themselves.

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

I've read quite a bit of your post (and scrolled over the rest) and noticed nothing but baseless assertions and irrational assumptions.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I literally debunked the red cross myth in my post and agree with tour assertion. So, you obviously are not reading my posts and it looks like nobody elses. 4.5 million did not die in concentration camps. The numbers have been lowered millions over the years but the 6 million figure has stayed the same.

How about you debunk the assumptions? 600,000 - 1,000,000 died in Nazi concentration camps, not 6 million, not 4.5 million. Not 2 million. It doesn't matter what Nazis under a kangaroo, torture trial blurted out.

All you are doing is posting the official consenus not backed up by physical proof.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I said I read part of your post (a lot of it) and scrolled over the rest, seeing no rational arguments for holocaust denial/minimalism. I looked for rational arguments for your beliefs, and I found none. Nothing.

Your attempt to say "only 600,000 were killed" is an attempt for you to act like you're not just another sadist holocaust denier, but people are not fooled by this.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You found nothing. Then be specific and debunk what I've stayed. Also, you have provided zero proof for the 6 million figure. Nobody here is denying the horrible things the National socialists did, we are just trying to base things in arithmetics rather than belief only.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, you have provided zero proof for the 6 million figure.

Incorrect. Again:

YSK the 6m figure came from the Nazis themselves:

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

And (also) people argue this number is based on the estimated jewish people who disappeared.

Please be more skeptical of neo-nazi propaganda.

Then be specific and debunk what I've stayed.

I did already. Look at my previous replies.