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[–]Only71Genders 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (84 children)

No one can confirm anything major about history was a factual event. That's the nature of human knowledge. We can make some solid assumptions though. But videos and pics can be faked or misleading. Stats can be lied about. Stories too. For all we know, only ten thousand Jews actually died in German custody. Or ten million. There is no confirming any of it. Just estimates and assumptions to fit a narrative.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

No one can confirm anything major about history was a factual event.

Incorrect. eg:

  1. There's lots of video/photo evidence of the concentration camps, mass graves, etc.
  2. The population of jewish people (and other people disliked by the nazis) massively dropped by many millions. In fact the estimate of 6 million jewish people being killed was in big part based on how many people disappeared.

Please do not act like these events were just a wild guess. People might not know if the germans killed 5.5m jews or 6.5m jews, but this is a well recorded factual event with a lot of evidence showing what happened.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

Those images don't "prove" that there was systemic extermination. They prove that a "certain" amount of inmates were starving and possibly suffering from disease. Funny thing about images, without context, any narration can be inserted.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

They prove that a "certain" amount of inmates were starving and possibly suffering from disease.

There's many photos of small children in concentration camps, & even if they were starved to death that is still mass murder.

And similarly lots of children where in those giant piles of bodies found after ww2. Your holocaust denial is absolutely cruel and irrational.

[–]newguy 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You realize there is a difference between questioning the numbers, and questioning if it happened at all. I believe it happened, I'm just not sure about the numbers they claim.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If you see:

  • about 6 million jewish people disappeared (whole families and a lot children),

  • and you see the endless photos of little kids in these prisons and piles of bodies,

  • and you see the endless photos of the death camps ,

  • and you see the huge piles of bodies,

And you're like "I wonder if they're a tiny few percentage off" that would be questioning the numbers.

If you're greatly questioning it (suggesting that 6m is greatly too high) thenyou are denying the holocaust. You're not fooling anyone.

[–]Zahn 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Virtue signaling at its finest. Photos of dead people show dead people. It does not de facto validate your conspiracy theory of an intentional mass extermination event.

Don't see things as you want to see them, or as others want you to see them, instead see things as they truly are.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

. Photos of dead people show dead people. It does not de facto validate your conspiracy theory of an intentional mass extermination event.

These aren't just bodies, these are mass killings- these are murdered people.

These people and chlidren were often shot, thrown in gas chambers, and worked/starved to death by "guards" who were not starving themselves.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Hmmm, seems like you have a suspiciously personal invested interest in this topic. I'm not saying "war crimes" didn't happen, yet your narrative is text book as well as is your "debate" style. You're not progressing the discussion ,but instead repeating yourself. You're not fooling anyone with experience in this subject matter.

[–]newguy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you're greatly questioning it (suggesting that 6m is greatly too high) thenyou are denying the holocaust

If I say 5 million died instead of 6 million, that's not "denying the holocaust" because I clearly still think it happened, I just don't agree on the exact numbers.

What if I say I think 5.9 million died? Am I a holocaust denier? Your logic doesn't make sense

Also, many more types of people than just jews died, so I'm not sure why you're only focused on them. I think if you count everyone, didn't 10 million or so get killed in the camps? So by you saying 6 million, that makes you 4 million short!

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If I say 3 million died instead of 6 million, that's not "denying the holocaust"

That's denying half the holocaust.

I'm not going to tell you what the percentage is, for who counts as a "holocaust denier", but it is totally rational to understand that at some point a person making very minimal estimates of an event is essentially denying it and should be described that way.

Also, many more types of people than just jews died, so I'm not sure why you're only focused on them.

I'm not, I spoke of the others who were killed. I am giving an example with the most common known number.

[–]newguy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Okay, fair enough. But how do you explain this assortment of real newspaper articles touting the "6 million jews killed" number, far before WW2 even happened? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2yMGvnPoi2M/UAikHaJTxrI/AAAAAAAACdw/p7kBa2KmpHw/s640/holocaust_six_million_exterminated_jews_new_york_times_juda_60000000.jpg

The 6M number is part of some sects of Jewish prophecy, so maybe they suffered 3M terrible losses and then exaggerated it a bit to fulfill prophecy so they could get Israel and fulfill prophecy

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Someone posted that earlier. Here is my reply.

[–]Zahn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Put on your tin foil hat, there's no big conspiracy by the "powerful holocaust questioning" lobby to bring up concerns just so that they can get thrown in jail for deviating from the official narrative.

What if those children starved as a result of Allied bombing of food and medicine supply lines? Thusly, the U.S. in effect, killed them?

Also, being labeled a "denier" is obviously just slander. I question everything. All you must do is open your mind. More substance, less weaponized slurs.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

What if those children starved as a result of Allied bombing of food and medicine supply lines? Thusly, the U.S. in effect, killed them?

Little kids were in a prison to execute them and their families.

Please don't try to blame the people trying to defeat the Nazis based on the "argument" that theoretically a US bomb could have hurt the jews/etc.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

You should bring up human lamp shades, human soap, roller coaster of death, anal gas pumps ,and the masturbation death machines at this point to really solidify your stance.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even if some of the allegations (of the nazi's actions) were not proven that is not evidence that that the event in general lacks evidence.

Be honest: the nazis, eg in their writings & statements after the war, defended their genocidal ideology. You can not deny the holocaust.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also, yet another strange comment from you. Really putting yourself out there with these absolutist statements. Many of these common war crimes you cite have interesting parallels to the current Jewish treatment of modern day Palestinians and their children. Seems when the shoe is on the other foot, then it's ok?

[–]WebcomicAddiction 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Many of these common war crimes you cite

Arent you the one who cites war crimes here?

[–]ouijazaza 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It's your "theoretical" they were wanting to kill children. I have not found anything that would substantiate this theory of yours. That's just mental gymnastics on your part. However the Allies were quite open about their bombing raids incapacitating German supply lines causing widespread starvation and suffering. Hence, the alternate theory they died as a result of Allied destruction of food and medical supply lines is significantly more plausible than you jumping to predetermined conclusions.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's your "theoretical" they were wanting to kill children.

There's nothing theoretical- they shot children & spoke of it openly after the holocaust was revealed. And not only did they shoot children with guns, but they portrayed themselves as good moral people for doing it.

Nazi police officer:

  • "I made the effort to only shoot children. It so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand. My neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her. Because I reasoned with myself that after all, without it's mother the child could not live any longer. It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release children unable to live without their mother."

https://youtu.be/O8UzmLsXGRU?t=1165

And they put children in death camps. You can not rationally shift the blame like this.

[–]Zahn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This anecdotal example does not conclusively prove an intentional mass extermination event. You're leading with your emotions and not your mind. It's okay to feel what you do, but you must push through the involuntary reactionism regardless of how uncomfortable it becomes for you.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This anecdotal example does not conclusively prove an intentional mass extermination event.

The other things I posted are clear evidence of the holocaust.

While that (a Nazi police offer admitting to killing masses of children via shooting them) is to show this was not simply some accident, or some accidental lack of food. They were shooting children.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You should stop now unless you want your worldview rocked. It's depressing as fuck. And no, Hitler was not a good guy and he did many things wrong.

[–]WebcomicAddiction 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How would he have his worldview rocked?

[–]CompleteDoubterII 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm curious about your views on the Holocaust. What do you believe? Or do you believe nothing, only that the official story is false? What convinced you of this? (I've done no investigation, so I have no view on it.)

[–]Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

From this blog:

Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, said:

These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures” (Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15)

Nobody denies the persecution of Jews but the Holocaust story is indeed exaggerated. Reality tells us what is true, science backs this reality, but belief is without proof and belief in a miracle that has been proven fraudulent is a hard pill to swallow. The holocaust by definition is sacrifice through fire. So, did 6 million Jews die via sacrifice through fire?

Some other classic quotes:

<Truth is no defence”

As in, one should never question a known known, even if it might not be true. The sinisterness and ferocity of the regime is more than enough evidence for truth to be inverted.

And:

It is not necessary to ask how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was possible technically since it took place. That is the necessary point of departure for any historical inquiry on this subject. It is our function simply to recall that truth: There as not, there cannot be, any debate about the existence of the gas chambers.” ~ Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 historians.

Will comment [on] one popular Holocaust denial claim, which I find incorrect:

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

I found a report with very similar numbers. It was used in East Germany:

http://www.renegadetribune.com/international-red-cross-report-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/

There is an image of it.   The IRC report of 1947 must have been based on similar information.


1) Look up Majdanek, it says 6,920 deaths. Then look up the following death book from the Majdanek museum:

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=32153

The text says about 7,000 deaths. So these figures match, but the death book is deaths in the time June 8 to September 28, 1942.

Clearly, the report is based on partial data from Majdanek, only the death books from June 8 to September 28, 1942. Majdanek was captured almost intact, so there are all archives. They have been carefully studied. The official death toll is 78,000 of whom 59,000 are Jews.


2) Look up Auschwitz, the report says 52,589. Then you wonder where did the report get this number as Soviets hid the archives of Auschwitz.

The archives were found much later. They have partial death books, which contain 68,864 names. Thus, the authors of the report did not have these death books. Their number, though given as precise, is incorrect.


3) Then notice that the report does not have figures for camps that were not any more in existence when Allied conquered Germany. There are missing Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belcez. There is also missing Theresienstadt. There are missing ghettos of Warsaw and Lodz, as are all work camps in Poland. There is missing the whole area of the Soviet union of 1941.


4) Look up the figure of Mauthausen. The report gives it as 77,727. You wonder why Mauthausen was so much worse than the other camps. This is because the report figure matches the presently given death toll only for the camp of Mauthausen. The normal figure given for that camp is 80,000.


For all these reasons, the IRC report is unreliable. But the essential issue is that it does not have all Jewish deaths. It is only National Socialist concentration camps, all but 2 in Germany, omitting 4 important concentration camps in Poland, two large ghettos and a large number of small work camps.

Compare the figures in the East German report to the following figures from each concentration camp web pages. Notice, none of these are death camps, none had alleged gas chambers:

  • Bergen-Belsen 0.05 million,

  • Buchenwaldt 0.05,

  • Ravensbruk some 0.09,

  • Mauthausen maybe 0.08 (mostly non-Jews),

  • Flossenberg 0.03,

  • Dachau 0.027 its subcamp 0.01.

The rest, that is Gross-Rosen, Stutthof, Sachenhausen, Neuengammen, Natzweiler, Mittelbau, etc. together make maybe 0.05.

These all sum to 0.39 million.


From the East German report we can deduce that these death tolls, that are given in the web sites of concentration camps in Germany, are likely to be correct. That is, the figures in the East German report and the IRC report were obtained from death books that remained in the camps when the Allied arrived, as not all books remained (military personnel has to burn documents so that the enemy does not get them), the death tolls are only partial. But the figure for Mauthausen is 77,0000.

Apparently in this camp all death books were left behind. Camps in Germany were similar, so their death ratios should be similar. Scaling the number of prisoners in Mauthausen to the size of the other camps in Germany we can get good estimates to the death toll in the other camps.

It seems to lead to figures that are close to the official numbers. Thus, the death tolls in camps in Germany are as in the official figures. Of Poland, there were the following concentration camps:

Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec.

The East German report is not much use as it reports only Majdanek (from partial death books) and Auschwitz (from an unknown, but incorrect source). But there is good information from Majdanek, as most of the camp archives were obtained (but only partial death books). From the partial death books for a period of less than 4 months (7000) we can verify that Kola’s estimate 78,000, of whom 59,000 Jews, is very probable. The other camps in Poland are likely to have similar death ratios.

Thus, estimating death tolls in concentration camps is not in any way impossible. It does not give 6 million. For Nazi concentration camps alone the Jewish death toll is roughly 600,000, not half of 277,000.

But adding other deaths the total gets considerably higher.

You must add deaths in ghettos and work camps in Poland (170,000) and in war 1939+ghetto uprising and POW camps (some 50,000), shootings in Yugoslavia (58,000), shootings by Einsatzgruppen and SS divisions (some 100,000), deaths in work camps and ghettos in Ukraine, and an estimate how many died in ghettos and camps in Ukraine in German hands. Adding about 850,000 deaths in Soviet hands and 160,000 in Romania raise the total to 2-2.5 million. The majority of these deaths are not the result of an alleged extermination program. [And as revisionists have stated time and time again, they do not deny the executions of Jews and the rounding up of Jews to be used for slave labor or imprisoned in concentration camps. They do not advocate or try to whitewash the crimes of the National Socialists, whether it be their coordinated euthanasia program of disabled people, or the imprisonment of homosexuals, communists, Jews, and work shy persons. Revisionists are, however, skeptical about the final solution narrative, the six million figure and the use of gas chambers.]


AJY statistics is based on Soviet figures and these figures are not reliable. A very good argument can be made that the Soviet figure was 1 million smaller in 1939 and about 1 million higher in 1948 than what the Soviets told. Doing these corrections you get 2.5 million as the Jewish death toll. I do not see any reason why anybody should be put to jail for proposing these corrections to the Soviet figures. We exactly know that Soviet figures were simply Soviet guesses, not based on valid census data.


I personally do not have any problem in believing in the 6 million figure in case the state threatens with a prison sentence.

It is simply a demand to believe in a miracle: by arithmetics the 6 million figure is not possible, but as a miracle of God could have more Jews die than there were, why not?

Earlier in the Roman Empire you had to believe that Caesar was a god, and if you refused to believe it, you were killed. Then you were killed if you did not believe in some Church dogma. Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

But I guess today in Europe one is allowed to both believe in a religious truth and to believe in a scientific truth at the same time, even if they are in contradiction. I mean, we can believe that God created Adam and at the same time believe in humans coming from Africa. A contradiction, but you are allowed to believe in a contradiction.

[–]Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By the way the pictures you see of emaciated people in concentration campa are at the very end of thr war when Germany had collapse, and raillines were bombed. No food or medical supplies were coming in. Germans were dying and emigrating to the west, their were mass expulsions. Many concentrations camps in fact were bombed by the allies. Germany also had a food blockade on her whoch made conditions much worse. The 6 million figure is a lie based on arithmetics. As for gass chambers I can detail that in more detail but the 4.5 million figure of gassings is absurdly impossible.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

Again, the Red Cross said that's bullshit. The Red Cross (the ICRC) denies that they ever made those statistics:

  • "In the 1978 official bulletin, entitled "False Propaganda", the ICRC denounced Holocaust denial and confirmed that the agency "Never published—or even compiled—statistics of this kind which are being falsely attributed to it" and stated that its mission was "to help war victims, not to count them",[84][85][86] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[84][86] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[84][86] and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

Actually that number came from the Nazis themselves.

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

I've read quite a bit of your post (and scrolled over the rest) and noticed nothing but baseless assertions and irrational assumptions.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I literally debunked the red cross myth in my post and agree with tour assertion. So, you obviously are not reading my posts and it looks like nobody elses. 4.5 million did not die in concentration camps. The numbers have been lowered millions over the years but the 6 million figure has stayed the same.

How about you debunk the assumptions? 600,000 - 1,000,000 died in Nazi concentration camps, not 6 million, not 4.5 million. Not 2 million. It doesn't matter what Nazis under a kangaroo, torture trial blurted out.

All you are doing is posting the official consenus not backed up by physical proof.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I said I read part of your post (a lot of it) and scrolled over the rest, seeing no rational arguments for holocaust denial/minimalism. I looked for rational arguments for your beliefs, and I found none. Nothing.

Your attempt to say "only 600,000 were killed" is an attempt for you to act like you're not just another sadist holocaust denier, but people are not fooled by this.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You found nothing. Then be specific and debunk what I've stayed. Also, you have provided zero proof for the 6 million figure. Nobody here is denying the horrible things the National socialists did, we are just trying to base things in arithmetics rather than belief only.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, you have provided zero proof for the 6 million figure.

Incorrect. Again:

YSK the 6m figure came from the Nazis themselves:

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

And (also) people argue this number is based on the estimated jewish people who disappeared.

Please be more skeptical of neo-nazi propaganda.

Then be specific and debunk what I've stayed.

I did already. Look at my previous replies.

[–]Only71Genders 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

  1. Vidoes and photos have been altered since the beginning of vidoes and photos. And videos and photos can be staged. Easily. Or just given a fake description that retards will blindly believe. Meanwhile do any of them show the totality of any event? The answer is no, never.

  2. There are contradicting accounts of population figures, and figures can be intentionally manipulated at any time. And also don't prove anything, especially if a group has gone into hiding, refuses to accurately answer a census, or is no longer in a region conducting that accurate of a census.

So all you have is personal faith that everyone had been honest and no one ever altered anything for any personal gain. This is a broad brush statement. Actually, all of these are. Not specifically talking about Jews or genocide. So you, and everyone else, can't factually prove anything. Saying otherwise is a lie. Proof to an arbitrary standard is the best anyone can hope for. You can lie and act like you know something is absolutely certain, but no one does. They just believe what they want to believe (typically whatever their programming has told them to believe) and get angry and defensive at anyone who questions it. Basically like any religious person.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Vidoes and photos have been altered since the beginning of vidoes and photos.

Well when the photos & "vidoes" of all the nations who survived attacks by the Nazi genocides all show a train system for moving huge amounts of people to genocidal death camps, I think that's pretty good evidence personally.

Maybe you're in denial of the obvious?

I'm all for questioning power & the story they tell, but sometimes you can take conspiracy too far and become totally cruel & irrational.

[–]Only71Genders 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Do they really show that? I mean, can you prove that is what they are showing? You are assuming that is what they are showing. Because that is what you want to believe. And that is what you were told. How does a train system automatically verify a genocide? All it verifies is that a train system existed somewhere at some point in time.

Maybe you're in denial of the obvious?

Are you being ironic or are just projecting? YOU are the one denying reality. I am pointing out basic facts of existence and you aren't even able to address them. You are clinging on to a discussion about the Holocaust that is barely even relevant.

I'm all for questioning power & the story they tell, but sometimes you can take conspiracy too far and become totally cruel & irrational.

You are the only one that desperately wants a horrific genocide to have taken place. I would be thrilled if it never happened. What type of person WANTS the holocaust to have happened?? I'm just pointing out that we have no clue if it did or didn't happen as we have been told it did. I even pointed out that it could have been more than six million Jews that were killed. You glossed right over that concept, and I think you are arguing from a very dishonest position at this point. Obviously I should have done a better job at not making this feel like a personal attack, and I apologise for doing so. Honest discussion end when people are offended.

[–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He's not offended, he's just playing you.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He's doing a poor job at it then. If his best argument is to not have one, and then give me a platform to prove he doesn't have one, then his strategy sucks balls. But you're probably right. There is no way that he can be this oblivious. It looks intentional. Although cognitive dissonance is a powerful force sometimes.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Your belief is that these concentration camp photos are all some kind of jewish conspiracy theory.

You're in denial of a wide variety of photo/video evidence from multiple sides which almost entirely matches- showing the same atrocities, eg same trains (which had a bunch of jewish/etc people on them when people were freed,) and the same mass killing camps and the same mass graves.

And this photo/video evidence (from multiple sides) also matches the testimony of the survivors of the death camps, and also matches the nazi's post-war writings & stories defending their genocide.

In other words, your position is 100% not rational.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're a pretty funny jewish kid. I appreciate your chutzpah, but you're out of your league and need to work on your rhetoric game more. Will check back when you have had some more practice.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

[talking about someone personally]

That's also not a rational argument that anything I said was wrong.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Another fatal flaw is that you don't innately know when to stop. Sociopathic behaviour is ingrained in you and are in love with hearing yourself talk. Grossly overestimating your intellect, you seek to hide your deficiencies behind the complexities of sophistry to sway the weak minded and to further delude yourself with your perceived intellectual grandiosity when you have succeeded in fooling the unwary.

The truth never fears questioning, nor would you have to resort to rhetorical fallacies if your debate premise was founded in truth to begin with.

I can only implore that you pursue more meaningful causes to advance peace and understanding. But, just not sure those kind of pursuits are in your nature. Time will tell...Farewell, do well.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[personal attacks]

Thank you for surrendering the debate.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Your belief is that these concentration camp photos are all some kind of jewish conspiracy theory

That was MY belief?? You can't help but lie, can you? Super weird.

Again, videos and photos don't prove anything as factual. At all. I hope you aren't on a jury for an innocent man... And I've explained this repeatedly, but you aren't honest enough to reply to anything that I have said. You just keep changing the subject and going on about the Holocaust claims. Which you can't prove. And you are pissed that you can't prove it. Thanks to this conversation, I now believe in the Holocaust a little less than I did before. Still pretty in the middle though. But you and I will never know what really happened. You will have to go to the grave knowing that all you can do is lie and say you know it all to be a fact. You never will though. Good luck!

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It's not just photos, it's photos matching from different sources (eg different nations) which also match survivor testimony and match the confessions/writings of the nazis.

Please be honest and rational.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao telling me to be honest just makes you a troll at this point. Can you specify what I said that was dishonest? You couldn't even back up a single one of your lies. Repeating that you think your evidence is definitely proof that something is a fact, doesn't make it a fact. It just makes you a liar. Or con artist. Or both...

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You have no evidence for your belief that the endless holocaust photos [eg this] were all photoshoped.

The photos (from many sides & states) show a matching & clear horrific genocide. And I believe many people are in denial about that. If you can not accept the endless evidence I have already posted then you will probably never accept this reality.

[–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's been very entertaining watching your generic low Iq rhetoric. You made me laugh quite a bit when you try to play the shaming card, thinking that actually works on rational whites.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's been very entertaining watching your generic low Iq rhetoric. You made me laugh quite a bit when you try to play the shaming card, thinking that actually works on rational whites.

/u/Zahn, your post is just a personal attack.

It's not a rational evidence-based argument that anything I said was wrong. (Just like all your other posts here.)

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 6))

On June 26, 1942, the Chief of the Security Police and SD wrote in a report in German, translated into English:

The measures taken by the Security Police and the SD also have to create fundamental changes in White Russia in the field of the Jewish question. In order to bring the Jews under effective control, independent of measures to be taken later, Jewish Elders' Councils were appointed, who are responsible to the Security Police and the SD for the attitude of their racial comrades. In addition, the registration of Jews and their affiliation in ghettos began. Finally, the Jews were marked by a yellow badge to be worn on the chest and back in the manner of the Jewish star imported into the Reich territory. In order to evaluate the work potential of the Jews, they are generally used for closed work and for cleanup work.

With these measures, the foundations for the later intended final solution of the European Jewish question were also created for the territory of Byelorussia.**

Source: »Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten Nr. 9«, Berlin, den 26. Juni 1942. RGVA, 500-1-755, S. 190. "Reports from the Occupied Eastern Territories No. 9", Berlin, June 26, 1942. RGVA, 500-1-755, p. 190.


In April 1943, Richard Korherr, Inspector for Statistics at the office of the Reichsführer SS, wrote the Korherr Report, which had the title "The Final Solution to the European Jewish Question" and makes no mention at all of gassing or extermination. In fact, Korherr himself in a letter to Der Spiegel (see in above link) denied that "Special treatment" meant extermination, and claimed that Jews were not being exterminated but "settled in the District of Lublin."

These next points are from Germar Rudolf's "Lectures on the Holocaust":

  • On Oct. 17, 1941, Martin Luther, the head of the Germany department in the Foreign Office, composed a document which discusses "comprehensive measures relating to a Final Solution of the Jewish Question after the end of the War." (Politisches Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes (Berlin), Politische Abteilung III 245, ref. Po 36, vol. I.)

  • September 1942: In the so-called "Green Map" for the "Administration of the Economy in the Occupied Eastern Regions," it is stated that "After the War, the Jewish question will be solved overall throughout Europe," which is why until then everything would merely be "partial measures." It admonished that "thuggish measures" against Jews would be "unworthy of Germans and must be avoided by all means." ("Richtlinien für die Führung der Wirtschaft in den besetzten Ostgebieten" (Grüne Mappe), Berlin, September 1942. EC-347. IMT, vol. XXXVI, p. 348.)

  • On 5 September 1942, Horst Ahnert of the Paris security police wrote that in conjunction with the "final solution to the Jewish question" that the "deportation of Jews for purpose of labor" was about to begin.

(Centre de Documentation Juive Contemporaine, vol. XXVI-61.)


Some interesting news articles mentioning the "Final Solution"

https://archive.is/6X2W0/df268b6c97581b6ae97bbc9c6ef4731bea0fc4ac.jpg

Zionist newspaper Die jüdische Wanderung (The Jewish Wandering), "Auswanderung als Endlösung" (Emigration as Final Solution), by Zionist leader Fabius Schach, Berlin, February 18, 1939:

https://archive.is/3YxIy/3221198beff4ac0e3d8db8e1c940ebf1a3f25e52.jpg

The San Bernardino Daily Sun - August 1940:

https://archive.is/Bdeg7/00294d201d9a6952018dfee45bfa91f29adfe741.jpg

https://archive.is/Bdeg7/00294d201d9a6952018dfee45bfa91f29adfe741.jpg

https://archive.is/QhsLU/4d604a0113cbd0d35a83e2130aa7cc75d622e721.jpg


There are many more of these articles and newspaper photographs illustrating the final solution meaning. I will not post them all, because they all get censored. Anyway, I thought this would be an interesting post.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 5))

On 12 July 1940, upon returning from Berlin, where he had been received by Hitler, Hans Frank, governor of Poland, made a speech in which he declared:

From the viewpoint of general policy, I would like to add that it was decided to deport all the Jewish communities of Germany, of the General Government [Poland], and of the Protectorate [Bohemia-Moravia] to an African or an American colony as soon as possible after having made peace: Madagascar, which France would have to abandon to that end, has been suggested

SOURCE: PS-2233, IMT, VoL XXIX. H. Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs dans les pays de l'Est présentée d'Nuremberg (The Persecution of the Jews in the Eastern Countries Presented at Nuremberg), Paris, 1949, p. 202.


In a note of 14 November 1942 titled "Financing the measures related to the solution of the Jewish problem" Ministerial Counselor Maedel confirmed:

It is some time ago that the Reichsmarschall charged the Reichsführer-SS and chief of the German police with preparing measures appropriate to assuring the final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe. The Reichsführer-SS has charged the Chief of the Security Police and the SD with the execution of that task. The latter has, first of an, expedited, by special measures, the legal emigration of the Jews to overseas countries. When the war made overseas emigration impossible he made preparations for the progressive clearance of the Reich territory of its Jews by their evacuation to the east.

SOURCE: document NG-4583; Finanzierung der Massnahmen zur Lösung der Judenfrage: Memorandum des Reichsfinanzministeriums, Abt. I, Gruppe: Haushalt- und Kassenwesen.


A "notice" of 9 October 1942 captioned, "Preparatory Measures for the Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe-Rumors About the Position of the Jews in the East" (PS-3244) summarizes the stages and explains clearly the meaning of "final solution":

For approx. 2000 years, a so-far unsuccessful battle has been waged against Judaism. Only since 1933 have we started to find ways and means in order to enable a complete separation of Judaism from the German masses.

The work toward a solution which has previously been accomplished can in the main be divided as follows:

The repulsion of Jews from the individual spheres of living of the German people. The laws issued by the lawmakers are hereby to be the basis, which guarantees that future generations will also be protected from a possible new overflooding by the enemy.

The attempt to completely drive out the enemy from the area of the Reich. In view of the only very limited living space [Lebensraum] at the disposal of the German people it was hoped this problem could be solved in the main by speeding up the Jewish emigration.

Since the outbreak of war in 1939 these possibilities of emigration decreased to an ever greater extent. On the other hand, in addition to the living space [Lebensraum] of the German people, their economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] grew steadily, so that in view of the large numbers of Jews residing in these territories a complete repulsion of the Jews by emigration is no longer possible.

Since even our next generation will not be so close to this problem and will no longer see it clearly enough on the basis of past experiences and since this matter which has now started rolling demands clearing up, the whole problem must still be solved by the present generation.

A complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] is therefore an urgent need in the fight for the security of existence of the German people.

Starting with the territory of the Reich and proceeding to the remaining European countries included in the final solution, the Jews are currently being deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East.


'there is no document signed by Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich which speaks of exterminating the jews... the word 'extermination' does not appear in the letter from Goring to Heydrich concerning the final solution to the jewish question

This statement was made by Doctor Kubovy, of the Documentation Center in Tel Aviv 1960 Quote taken from Le veritable proces Eichmann - Paul Rassinier

The 'final solution' was often used in conjunction with the word 'territorial' but it would appear the word 'territorial' is dropped very often.

Heydrich wrote to Ribbentrop on June 24 1940 raising the issue of a 'territorial final solution' - Gerald Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution 1984 pp44

Until its abandonment, the 'Madagascar Plan' was sometimes referred to by the German leaders as the 'final solution' to the 'Jewish question.'

Poliakov, Le proces de Jerusalem (The Jerusalem Trial)

But the word Endlosung gets interesting here...

Goring's protest of the English translation of the German word 'Gesamtlosung' (complete solution) as 'final solution' (Endlosung, led Justice Robert Jackson to acknowledge the false translation and restore the true meaning.

IMT, TMWC vol. 9 pp.519-520

Quite clearly in much of the use of the phrase 'final solution' they were talking of a territorial solution to the jewish problem. The problem being that they, the jews, would not leave steadily on their own and needed to be re-located. The war in Russia, leading to more available territory for this final solution being possible.


The June 24 letter Heydrich wrote to Ribbentrop:

Translation: C01 Heydrich letter to Ribbentrop regarding the "Territorial Final Solution" Letter by the Chief of the Reich Police and SD (IV D 4 –1574/40), signed Heydrich, to the Reich Foreign Minister, SS Major General Joachim von Ribbentrop, dated 24.6.1940

Dear Party Comrade von Ribbentrop!

In his capacity as Commissioner for the Four Year Plan, the Field Marshall General commissioned myself in January 1939 with implementing Jewish emigration from the whole Reich territory. Despite difficulties, in the following period it proved possible to successfully continue with Jewish emigration, even during the war. Since my office took responsibility for this task on 1 January 1939, over 200,000 Jews have emigrated from the Reich territory until now. The overall problem–there are already around 3¼ million Jews in the territories now standing today under German sovereignty – can no longer be solved through emigration however. A territorial final solution is therefore necessary. May I request that I be allowed to participate in any forthcoming discussions concerned with the final solution of the Jewish question should any be planned.

Heil Hitler!

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 4))

  1. The Croat Government is likewise fundamentally agreeable to the removal of the Jews from Croatia. It especially considers the deportation of the four to five thousand Jews from the Italian occupied Second zone (centered around Dubrovnik and Mostar) to be important, as they represent a political burden and their elimination would serve the general pacification. The removal can of course take place only with German aid, as difficulties are to be expected from the Italian side. There have been practical examples of resistance to the Croat measures by Italian officials on behalf of well-to-do Jews. Furthermore, the Italian Chief of Staff in Mostar has said that he cannot approve the removal since all the people living in Mostar have been assured of the same treatment.

Since meanwhile according to a telephone communication from Zagreb, the Croat Government has given its written approval of the proposed measure, Minister Kasche thinks it right to begin with the removal, and in fact to begin for the whole country. One could therefore take the risk of having difficulties develop in the course of the action, so far as concerns the zone occupied by Italians.

A report for the Reich Foreign Minister to this effect (D III 562 Secret) has been held up by State Secretary von Weizsäcker since he considered an inquiry should first be made at the Embassy in Rome. The answer has not been received.

The problem of the Italian Jews has come up in the same way in connection with the evacuation of the Jews in France.

Ambassador Abetz points out in connection with the deportation in preparation from the Occupied French Territory that there was an urgent political interest to take the foreign Jews first in the evacuation measures. Since these Jews were regarded as foreign bodies, they were already especially hated and passing them over and giving them thereby a quasi privileging would cause bad feeling, the more so since among them were to be found responsible instigators of Jewish terror and sabotage acts. It was regrettable that the Axis appeared exactly in this point to pursue no uniform policy.

If the evacuation of the foreign Jews were not immediately possible, the Italian Government should be for the time being asked to repatriate their Jews from France.

On the Italian side, economic interests appear to play a decisive role. The safeguarding of these interests, however, is entirely possible, so that on this point there needs to be no obstacle to the planned solution.

On this question of the Italian Jews in France a conference record of July 24, re D III 562 Secret, has been submitted to the Reich Foreign Minister.

  1. On the occasion of a reception by the Reich Foreign Minister on November 26, 1941, the Bulgarian Foreign Minister Popoff touched on the problem of according like treatment to the Jews of European nationalities and pointed out the difficulties that the Bulgarians had in the application of their Jewish laws to Jews of foreign nationality.

The Reich Foreign Minister answered that he thought this question brought up by Mr. Popoff not uninteresting. Even now he could say one thing to him, that at the end of this war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Führer and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied and individual measures would not help very much. Furthermore, one should not attribute too much worth to the protests on behalf of the Jews of foreign nationality. At any rate, we would not let ourselves be taken in any further by such protests from the American side. He - the Reich Foreign Minister - would have the problem described by Mr. Popoff investigated by the Foreign Office.

The Reich Foreign Minister commissioned me to undertake the investigation promised (compare D III 660g) [document NG-4669].

I should like to make reference to my basic conference memorandum of December 4, 1941, re D III 660 Secret, which I am dispatching, together with the proper files. This conference memorandum was held up by the State Secretary, because he considered a further examination by the Legal Division first necessary. In their opinion the German-Bulgarian trade and shipping pact was not in agreement with the German-Bulgarian arrangements proposed by me. I therefore notified the German Legation in Sofia, re D III 497 Secret, under the date of June 19, in reference to the suggestion of the Bulgarian Foreign Minister Popoff at his reception to contact the Bulgarian Government and find out whether it was prepared to come to an agreement in the Jewish problem that there should be no rights from the trade and shipping pact given effect in favor of the Jews in the promise of reciprocality.

If the question is put from the Bulgarian side as to whether Germany is ready to deport Jews from Bulgaria to the East, the question should be answered in the affirmative, but in respect to the time of the departing should be answered evasively. This decree was cosigned by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary, the Director of the Political Division, the Director of the Division for Economic Policy, Section IV of the Political Division, Section IV of the Division for Economic Policy, and also by Ribbentrop. The Legation exchanged notes with the Bulgarian Government and reported that the Bulgarian Government is fundamentally prepared in the problem of the evacuation to sign an agreement with us. Thereby the basis is given to include the Bulgarian Jews in the Jewish measures. (D III 559 Secret and 569 Secret).

  1. The Hungarian Government has not yet been approached with respect to the Jewish removal, because the status of the Hungarian legislation up to the present does not promise a sufficient success.

  2. In accordance with the agreement of the Romanian Government mentioned under '8' the evacuation of the Romanian Jews from Germany and the occupied territories was begun, whereupon various Romanian consulates and the Romanian Minister in Berlin, who had no instructions from their Government, intervened. Ambassador von Killinger was therefore asked for clarification. The Legation seems to have made use of the Jewish advisor assigned to it, Richter, for this purpose. He is a person to whom the Romanian Government confirmed its earlier agreement to the inclusion of the Romanian Jews in the German measures and to whom the Deputy Ministry President Mihai Antonescu informed of the request of the Marshall that the German agencies should also carry out the removal from Romania itself and should be then immediately with the transport of the Jews from the areas Arad, Timisoara and Turda.

For details may I refer to my conference memorandum of August 17 as D III 649.

  1. At the request of the governments concerned, the legations in Bratislava, Zagreb and Bucharest have been assigned advisors for Jewish affairs. They have been made available at the request of the Foreign Office by the RSHA. Their assignment is for a limited time. It ends as soon as the Jewish problem in the country concerned can be regarded as solved in the German sense. Originally it was regarded as solved as soon as the country concerned has issued Jewish laws similar to the German ones.

Accordingly Richter was recalled from Romania last year by the RSHA.

At the urgent request of the legation in Bucharest, Richter was again assigned to the legation despite the objection of the RSHA. This was done with the express intention of having him remain there until the actual final solution in Romania (D III 1703 Secret and 1893 Secret).

Since all negotiations with the Romanian Government went through the Foreign Office, the report of SS First Lieutenant Richter submitted by the Reichsführer-SS should be considered only as an internal work report to the RSHA. The unusual procedure of having the confirmation of a final conference in the handwriting of the Deputy Minister President was sharply objected to immediately through the directive of the 17th of this month; the official handling of the affair must be carried out immediately. The files have been submitted there already under D III 659 Secret.

The intended deportations are a further step forward on the way of the total solution and are in respect to other countries (Hungary) very important. The deportation to the Government General is a temporary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied Eastern Territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given.

I therefore request approval for the continuation of the negotiations and measures under these terms and according to the arrangement made.

Signed: LUTHER


In regards to:

On February 10, 1942, Foreign Office official Franz Rademacher sent to another Third Reich official a memo

Here is the German text of the Feb 10, 1942 memo sent to Minister Harald Bielfeld by Franz Rademacher, from document NG-5770 (ADAP, Serie E, Bd. I, Nr.227):

Im August 1940 übergab ich Ihnen für Ihre Akten den von meinem Referat entworfenen Plan zur Endlösung der Judenfrage, wozu die Insel Madagaskar von Frankreich im Friedensvertrag gefordert, die praktische Durchführung der Aufgabe aber dem Reichssicherheitshauptamt übertragen werden sollte.... Der Krieg gegen die Sowjetunion hat inzwischen die Möglichkeit gegeben, andere Territorien für die Endlösung zur Verfügung zu stellen. Demgemäß hat der Führer entschieden, daß die Juden nicht nach Madagaskar, sondern nach dem Osten abgeschoben werden sollen. Madagaskar braucht mithin nicht mehr für die Endlösung vorgesehen zu werden.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 3))

The Madagascar plan was enthusiastically accepted by the RSHA, which in the opinion of the Foreign Office is the agency which alone is in the position technically and by experience to carry out a Jewish evacuation on a large scale and to guarantee the supervision of the people evacuated, the competent agency of the RSHA thereupon worked out a plan going into detail for the evacuation of the Jews to Madagascar and for their settlement there. This plan was approved by the Reichsführer-SS. SS Lieutenant General Heydrich submitted this plan directly to the Reich Foreign Minister in August 1940 (compare D III 2171). The Madagascar plan in fact had been outdated as the result of the political development.

The fact that the Führer intends to evacuate all Jews from Europe was communicated to me as early as August 1940 by Ambassador Abetz after an interview with the Führer (compare D III 2298).

Hence, the basic instruction of the Reich Foreign Minister, to promote the evacuation of the Jews in closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsführer-SS, is still in force and will therefore be observed by D III.

  1. The administration of the occupied territories brought with it the problem of the treatment of Jews living in these territories. First, the military commander in France saw himself compelled as the first one to issue on September 27, 1940, a decree on the treatment of the Jews in occupied France. The decree was issued with the agreement of the German Embassy in Paris. The pertinent instruction was issued directly by the Reich Foreign Minister to Ambassador Abetz on the occasion of a verbal report.

After the pattern of the Paris decree, similar decrees have been issued in the Netherlands and Belgium. As these decrees, in the same way as German laws concerning Jews, formally embrace all Jews independent of their citizenship, objections were made by foreign powers, among others protest notes by the Embassy of the United States of America, although the military commander in France through internal regulation had ordered that the Jewish measures should not be applied to the citizens of neutral countries.

The Reich Foreign Minister has decided in the case of the American protests that he does not consider it right to have military regulations issued for making an exception of the American Jews. It would be a mistake to reject objections of friendly states (Spain and Hungary) and on the other hand to show weakness toward the Americans. The Reich Foreign Minister considers it necessary to make these instructions to the field commanders retroactive (compare D III 5449).

In accordance with this direction, the Jewish measures have been given general application.

  1. In his letter of June 24, 1940 - Pol XII 136 - SS Lieutenant General Heydrich informed the Reich Foreign Minister that the whole problem of the approximately three and a quarter million Jews in the areas under German control can no longer be solved by emigration - a territorial final solution would be necessary.

In recognition of this, Reich Marshall Göring on July 31, 1941, commissioned SS Lieutenant General Heydrich to make, in conjunction with the interested German Control agencies, all necessary preparations for a total solution of the Jewish problem in the German sphere of influence in Europe (compare D III 709 secret). On the basis of this instruction, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich arranged a conference of all the interested German agencies for January 20, 1942, at which the State Secretaries were present from the other ministries and I myself from the Foreign Office. In the conference General Heydrich explained that Reich Marshall Göring's assignment to him had been made on the Führer's instruction and that the Führer instead of the emigration had now authorized the evacuation of the Jews to the East as the solution (compare page 5 of the enclosure to D III 29/42 Secret). State Secretary Weizsäcker had been informed on the conference; for the time being the Reich Foreign Minister had not been informed on the conference, because SS Lieutenant General Heydrich agreed to holding a new conference in the near future in which more details of the total solution should be discussed. This conference has never taken place due to Lieutenant General Heydrich's appointment as acting Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and due to his death.

In the conference on January 20, 1942, I demanded that all questions concerned with countries outside Germany must first have the agreement of the Foreign Office, a demand to which SS Lieutenant General Heydrich agreed and also has faithfully complied with, as in fact, the office of the RSHA handling Jewish matters had, from the beginning, carried out all measures in frictionless cooperation with the Foreign Office. The RSHA has in this matter proceeded indeed almost over-cautiously.


  1. On the basis of the Führer's instruction mentioned under '4' (above), the evacuation of the Jews from Germany was begun. It was urged that at the same time these Jews should also be taken who were nationals of the countries which had also undertaken Jewish measures. The RSHA accordingly made an inquiry of the Foreign Office. For reasons of courtesy, inquiry was made by way of the German legations in Bratislava [Slovakia], Zagreb [Croatia], and Bucharest [Romania] to the Governments there as to whether they wanted to recall their Jews from Germany in due time or to agree to their deportation to the ghettos in the East. To the issuance of this instruction, agreement was given before dispatch by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary in Charge of the Political Division, the Director of the Division for Economic Policy and the Director of the Legal Division (compare D III 336 Secret).

The German Legation in Bucharest reports with reference to D III 602 Secret, that the Romanian government would leave it to the Reich Government to deport their Jews along with the German Jews to the ghettos in the East. They are not interested in having the Romanian Jews return to Romania.

The Legation in Zagreb has informed us that the Croat Government expresses gratitude for the gesture of the German Government; but it would appreciate the deportation of its Jews to the East (compare D III 624 Secret).

The Legation in Bratislava reported with reference to D III 661 Secret that the Slovak Government is fundamentally in agreement with the deportation to the eastern ghettos. But the Slovak claims to the property of the Jews should not be endangered.

The wire reports have also been submitted, as customary, to the Reich Foreign Minister's Bureau.

On the basis of the reports of the Ministers, I have informed the RSHA with reference to D III 661 Secret that the Jews of Romanian, Croat, and Slovak nationality could also be deported; their property should be blocked. The Director of the Political Division, Section IV of the Political Division, Section IX of the Legal Division and Section IV of the Division for the Economic Policy have cosigned the document. Accordingly, the deportations of the Jews from the occupied territories was undertaken.

  1. The number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs there. The RSHA therefore, acting on the instruction of the Reichsführer-SS, approached the Foreign Office to ask the Slovak Government to make 20,000 young, strong Slovak Jews from Slovakia available for deportation to the East. The German Legation in Bratislava was provided, by D III 874, with proper instruction. The instruction was signed by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division, and Section IV of the Political Division.

The Legation in Bratislava reported re D III 1002 that the Slovak Government has taken up the suggestion eagerly; the preparatory work could be begun.

Following up this pleased concurrence of the Slovak Government, the Reichsführer-SS proposed that the rest of the Slovak Jews also be deported to the East and Slovakia thereby be made free of Jews. The Legation was, re D III 1559 Ang. II, provided with proper instruction. The draft of the instruction was signed by the State Secretary; after its dispatch it was submitted for their information to the bureau of the Reich Foreign Minister and the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division.

As the Slovak Episcopacy meanwhile raised objections to the deportation of the Jews before the Slovak Government, the instruction carries the express statement that in no case must there develop internal political difficulties on account of the evacuation of the Jews in Slovakia. By the telegraphic report, re D III 2006, the Legation reported that the Slovak Government, without any German pressure, has declared itself agreeable to the deportation of all Jews and that the State President agreed personally to the deportation. The telegraphic report was submitted to the bureau of the Reich Foreign Minister. The Slovak Government had furthermore agreed that it will pay as a contribution to the cost entailed RM 500 for every evacuated Jew.

In the meantime 52,000 Jews have been removed from Slovakia. Due to church influences and the corruption of individual officials 35,000 Jews have received a special legitimation. However, Minister President Tuka wants the Jewish removal continued and therefore has asked for support through diplomatic pressure by the Reich (compare D III 3865). The Ambassador is authorized to give this diplomatic help in that he may state to State President Dr. Tiso that the exclusion of the 35,000 Jews is a surprise in Germany, the more so since the cooperation of Slovakia up to now in the Jewish problem has been highly appreciated here. This instruction has been cosigned by the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division, and the State Secretary.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 2))

There is also the "Schlegelberger letter"

Mr Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the Führer had repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear that the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over. That being so, the current discussions are of purely theoretical value, in Mr Reich Minister Lammers' opinion. He will moreover take pains to ensure that, whatever else happens, no fundamental decisions are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a surprise briefing by any third party.

https://archive.is/KGgLp/24e872aa794230e93c17059a97bb80b187897312.JPG


During the NMT, the U.S. Prosecution in the Wilhelmstrasse Case presented a document, NG-2586, including "NG-2586-J" which is a summary of the other parts. It is a memo by Martin Luther (Horst Wagner's predecessor), a confidential German Foreign Office memorandum of August 21, 1942 (NMT. vol. 13, 243-249):

  1. The principle of the German Jewish policy after the seizure of power consisted in promoting with all means the Jewish emigration. For this purpose, in 1939, Field Marshall Göring in his capacity as Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan established a Reich Central Office for Jewish Emigration, and the direction was given to SS Lieutenant General Heydrich in his capacity as chief of the Security Police. The Foreign Office is represented in the committee of the Reich Central Office. The draft of a letter to this effect to the Chief of the Security Police was approved by the Reich Foreign Minister as 83/24 B in February 1939.

  2. The present war gives Germany the opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe. In consideration of the favorable course of the war against France, D III proposed in July 1940 as a solution - the removal of all Jews from Europe and the demanding of the Island of Madagascar from France as a territory for the reception of the Jews. The Reich Foreign Minister has basically agreed to the beginning of the preliminary work for the deportation of the Jews from Europe. This should be done in close cooperation with the offices of the Reichsführer-SS (compare D III 200/40).

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


What's often overlooked by non-Jewish critics is how the Holocaust myth is used to traumatize and control Jewish people, instil fear -- which can easily be turned into hate, perfect for the expansionist and militaristic goals of the Zionist elite. There's a great documentary, 'Defamation', which I think everyone will find very interesting. Watch it, if it is on YouTUbe, but it probably isn't because Zionists.

Now as for the final solution I did not find a thread dedicated to this topic, but both revisionists and believers accept that the Nazis had a "Final Solution to the Jewish Problem" -- they simply disagree on what that meant.

Exterminationists claim the "Final Solution" was a policy of exterminating the Jews. In his Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Professor Arthur Butz developed a revisionist definition:

"The 'final solution' meant the expulsion of all Jews from the German sphere of influence in Europe. After the invasion of Russia its specific meaning was the resettlement of these Jews in the East."

I will post German war-time documents and diary entries that I have found directly mentioning the "Final Solution" -- feel free to add any additional ones...


From the 'Wannsee Conference' January 20, 1942; NG-2586-G, NMT, vol. 13, 212-213:

At the beginning of the discussion Chief of the Security Police and of the SD, SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich, reported that the Reich Marshal had appointed him delegate for the preparations for the final solution of the Jewish question in Europe and pointed out that this discussion had been called for the purpose of clarifying fundamental questions.

The wish of the Reich Marshal to have a draft sent to him concerning organizational, factual and material interests in relation to the final solution of the Jewish question in Europe makes necessary an initial common action of all central offices immediately concerned with these questions in order to bring their general activities into line. The Reichsführer-SS and the Chief of the German Police (Chief of the Security Police and the SD) was entrusted with the official central handling of the final solution of the Jewish question without regard to geographic borders. The Chief of the Security Police and the SD then gave a short report of the struggle which has been carried on thus far against this enemy, the essential points being the following:

a) the expulsion of the Jews from every sphere of life of the German people,

b) the expulsion of the Jews from the living space of the German people.

In carrying out these efforts, an increased and planned acceleration of the emigration of the Jews from Reich territory was started, as the only possible present solution. ...

In the meantime the Reichsführer-SS and Chief of the German Police had prohibited emigration of Jews due to the dangers of an emigration in wartime and due to the possibilities of the East.

Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance.

See the relevant thread on the Wannsee Conference/protocols: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1647


From Document No. 2586 (E), NMT, vol. 13, 169-170. "Letter from Hermann Goering to Reinhard Heydrich, Berlin, July 31, 1941"

As supplement to the task that was entrusted to you in the decree dated January 24, 1939, namely to solve the Jewish question by emigration and evacuation in a way, which is the most favorable in connection with the conditions prevailing at the time, I herewith commission you to carry out all preparations with regard to organizational, factual, and financial viewpoints for a total solution of the Jewish question in those territories in Europe under German influence.

If the competency of other central organizations is touched in this connection, these organizations are to participate.

I further commission you to submit to me as soon as possible a draft showing the organizational, factual, and financial measures already taken for the execution of the intended final solution of the Jewish question.

https://archive.is/YHQfv/0a859af781ef153a876cdabc5f883b534b26228c.jpg


On February 10, 1942, Foreign Office official Franz Rademacher sent to another Third Reich official a memo:

The war against the Soviet Union has in the meantime created the opportunity to use other territories for the Final Solution. Accordingly, the Führer has decided that the Jews will not be shoved to Madagascar but rather to the east. Madagascar no longer needs to be earmarked for the Final Solution

Document N.G. 3933 of the Wilhelmstrasse trial, quoted by Reitlinger. "The final solution" p.79


In his March 7, 1942 diary entry, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels further explained the meaning of the "Final Solution"

I read a detailed report from the SD and police regarding the Final Solution to the Jewish question. A vast number of new significant points emerge from it. The Jewish question must now be solved within a pan-European framework. There are more than 11 million Jews still in Europe. They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the east; possibly an island, such as Madagascar can be assigned them after the war.


This seems to be confirmed by the passage of Goebbles' diary of March 27, 1942:

The Jews in the General Government, beginning in Lublin, are now being evacuated to the east This is a pretty barbaric procedure, not to be described here more precisely, and of the Jews themselves not much will remain…A judgment is being carried out against the Jews that, indeed barbaric, is fully deserved. The prophecy that the Führer made about them for causing a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner…No other government and no other regime would have the strength to solve this question comprehensively. Here too, the Führer is the unflinching champion and spokesman of a radical solution

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 1))

The official camp death records don't show anywhere near the claimed numbers killed -- nor do Bletchley Park's decrypted SS intercepts. Furthermore, death certificates from Auschwitz contradict the claim that those who could not work were liquidated.

The only camps that revisionists now believe gassings took place at were held by the Soviets, and were not open to Western inspection, unlike the German ones were because they had to follow the Geneva convention, which the Soviets refused.

There were at least 10 camps in the Allied sectors where both witnesses and "confessors" claimed gassings took place, but in the 1960's, those claims were debunked by historians... leaving only the infamous six camps behind the Iron Curtain.


Auschwitz had a Jewish orchestra, a store where Jews could buy goods, a cafeteria where the Jews could eat, and a swimming pool. The Jews had soccer teams, and even played against the German officers. Some Jews played on the German's team. The Jews could even go swimming. It sure doesn't sound like a "death camp" to me. So, what was it? And why are we propagandized by horrible photos of emaciated, naked bodies at the end of the war. That's for you to research.

Was it the Germans stealing their typhus infected clothes and knocking their teeth out in hopes of finding gold and silver? Was it their inhumanity to boil Jews alive and mix them in with building concrete? That was a national front-page headline. Many of these stories turned out to be atrocity propaganda as we saw during the Iraq war where Israeli news outlets headlined that Saddam was working with the Germans to erect gas chambers to liquidate all Jews in the Jewish diaspora.

Was it the need to make Jewish skin lampshades? Or are most of the emaciated bodies wr see in concentrations camps at the end of the war due to deadly typhus, starvation due to the destruction of Germany and the ongoing food blockade, as well as the saturation bombing of entire German cities including detention camps and the railroads needed to get the food to these camps.

Remember, we are talking about the Holocaust. Not the injustices of National Socialists on communists, Jews, gypsies, work shy people, and the many executions they conducted as well as their detainment of said people without due process. There is no doubt that a kind of genocide occured, but was it death through fire by sacrafice, because that is what Holocaust means.

Involuntary incarceration and forced labor, obviously is frightening and unpleasant. Execution of innocents is disgusting.

https://archive.org/download/CarolynYeager-hiddenAuschwitz-theUndergroundGuidedTour/CarolynYeager-hiddenAuschwitz-theUndergroundGuidedTour.pdf

It's interesting that the Auschwitz soccer field was right next to one of the alleged extermination sites, where people were allegedly lining up to be gassed all day and night, by the thousands, which isn't physically possible.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)


Prelude

So, you admit to not reading anyones' posts? You are simply scanning over them to find anything that might strengthen your bias. What could ever become of an argument or debate if you completely ignore your contentions arguments and instead attack their character or use fallacious rhetoric?

A sadist for questioning mainstream history? That kind of rhetoric is straight out of the ADL and JDF. You think we find sexual gratification and/or pleasure in questioning history; surely we do not find any pleasure in genocide! The National Socialists did not hide the fact that they wanted Jews to leave Germany. They did this forcefully by pushing them eastward, imprisoning them and executing many. In fact, Herzl's political Zionism and Hitler's antisemitic Zionism worked hand-in-hand to create the ethnostate we see today. Hitler was in fact a Zionist of the antisemitic type. Zionism before WW2 simply stood for the desire to emigrate the Jewish diaspora to Israel. In Hitler's library he had the words underlined in a book 'emigrate Jews to Palestine.' This was done through the transfer agreement between the Nazis and the World Zionist Congress and Zionist leaders in Germany. In fact the two top funders of Hitler were Zionists. In 'Mein Kampf' Hitler wrote that Zionism was a great Jewish ideology. The goal was to kick Jews out of Germany, though many survived the war and lived unabated in German territory. Is it not odd that for 300 years before Herzl's political Zionism, Jewish Hasidic sects advocated for the Jewish diaspora to emigrate to Israel, so too didn't various antisemitic secret societies in the theosophical sect. Kabbalists' too, and I have many quotes called for the persecution of Jews, and that a war was needed to emigrate the Jewish diaspora to Palestine. The antisemitic Zionist ideology of many National Socialists who had various affiliations with the theosophical society worked with the political Zionists of Herzl's type. As Herzl once stated in his diaries, "the antisemities will be our best friends."

Furthermore, the Nazis did not hide the fact that they implemented a coordinated euthanasia program for the disabled. Revisionists do not doubt that this program existed. All the evidence says it did.

Red Cross Numbers


Now, firstly I believe and have proven the Red Cross 40% of 271,000 Jewish deaths is a lie. This is often quoted by uninformed revisionists and genocide deniers but I can now safely say that it is debunked. You're able to read the debunking in my post above.

The amount of Jews who sufferered and died at the hands of the National Socialists was double and quite possibly triple the Red Cross figures. Highest estimation based on death records in all camps is 1,000,000 which I laid out in the post above. A post you refuse to debunk.

The six million figure has no basis in reality, none. It is arithmetically impossible, although, belief in this day and age trumps arithmetics.


Initially, it was said that 1.7m Jews were gassed at Majdanek, then it was 1.5m at the Nuremberg Trials. Those who disagreed were called "antisemites" and "neo-nazis." Despite the majority of these revisionists denouncing the warcrimes of the National Socialists German's Workers Party. Today, the official total is 80,000!! An earlier analysis by "Holocaust deniers" estimated 40,000 - 60,000 deaths These revisionists were right about the figures from the very start. They used facts, figures and science to back up these claims and fortunately as time passed they were proven right but not until many were silenced and/or thrown in jail.


Many of the Jews were deported and confined, during wartime, for precisely the same reason the Japanese were interned in the US: fear of a hostile fifth column, and declarations of hostility by Jewish organizations. Were the majority of them innocent people, yes, of course. Are revisionists approving such actions, no, absolutely not. Were tens of thousands of Jews executed based on race aline, of course, yes, tragically.

However, there is no evidence of a policy of extermination, i.e., the so-called final solution. There was though a real final solution that took place, which I'll talk about later.

There were no orders, plans, blueprints, budgets (etc) have been found of this so-called final solution of mass extermination. Due to the lack of crucial evidence, in the early 80's establishment scholarship split into two camps, which can't even agree on how the extermination supposedly came about -- 'Intentionalism vs Functionalism'.

Note that all that was necessary to pin the genocide on the Germans at Nuremberg were affidavits from military intelligence officers -- no forensic investigations were required or carried out. The tribunal took "judicial notice" of German crimes: this is a legal principle usually applied to [established facts such as] the boiling point of water, but they used it to avoid having to prove a technically and historically unprecedented crime.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You started off with a lie, twisting my words.

I said I read a significant amount of the post- I debunked part and scrolled over the rest seeing nothing but unfounded assumptions and evidenceless assertions.

I have already explained (in my various comments in this thread) how everything you just said is wrong and there is clear and absolute evidence of a genocide.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

No, you scanned over the post and found a quote that I debunked to then debunk it again. After that you just assumed everything else was wrong just because.

Be specific. You havn't read anything. Your cognitive dissonace is showing. The genocide existed but the Holocaust, or burnt offering did not. The amount of Jews who died and I and revisionists who exhaustinly researched all the camps and consenus data cam away with 2.5 million. Not 6 million which has no basis in reality. I explained why, also, the 2.5 million figure. 600,000 - 1,000,000 were murderer in a genocidal campaign. 4.5 million were not gassed in one concentration camp. If they were able to propgandize this figure for thirty years only to succumb to revisionists facts and figures, maybe they wouldn't have to fear an investigation. Revisionists are not fond of facism or what the Nazis did, but then again, you claim anyone who questions the 6 million figure is a nazi, so.

Also, you never debunked anything, you just post the offical account or a few anecdotal accounts to prove your slippery slope argument.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Again, I debunked everything these internet neo-nazis believe. eg here's some. Your long posts of evidenceless assertions are irrelevant.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The Korherr Report Part 5 /u/Anticapitalist /u/send_nasty_stuff /u/zahn Start on Part 1

The source anticapitalist links is a liar and fabricator. He should not be trusted. Nonetheless, his testimony has largely been discredited, but Israeli News certainly doesn't think so. Hoetll is a spy and a very sahdy individual who has lied for money many times.


At the beginning of 1943 SS chief Heinrich Himmler ordered his “Inspector for Statistics,” Richard Korherr, to prepare a report on the “Final Solution of the European Jewish Question.” Relying for the most part on information and figures supplied by the Reich Security Main Office, Korherr wrote a sixteen-page statistical survey that he submitted to Himmler on March 23, 1943. A few weeks later he produced a shorter supplemental version with the same title.

Even though, as Hilberg has pointed out, much about these reports, including their origin and purpose, “remains obscure,” they are nevertheless the most authoritative wartime statistical records available on the fate of Europe’s Jews.

These top level, secret German documents contain no mention of an extermination program or mass killings of Jews, a fact that seems hardly possible if such a program had existed.

Furthermore, as Jewish historian Gerald Reitlinger noted, they suggest that nothing like six million Jews could have been killed, even assuming the most sinister interpretations of the data.

Korherr, a staunch Catholic, declared after the war that he had not been aware that his reports had any sinister or murderous significance.

Jewish Restitution Claims Another important indication that the Six Million figure is not accurate is the large number of Jewish “Holocaust survivors” who have received restitution payments (Wiedergutmachung) from the German government in Bonn and, more recently, in Berlin.

Individuals who were:

“persecuted for political, racial, religious or ideological reasons”

by the wartime German regime have been eligible for money from the Bonn and Berlin government under the terms of the Federal Compensation Law (BEG) of 1953 and 1956.

This includes Jews who were interned in camps or ghettos, were obliged to wear the star badge, or who lived in hiding.

As of January 1984, there were 4.39 million successful individual BEG restitution claims. The great majority of these were from Jews. Raul Hilberg has said that “about two thirds” of the allowed claims have been from Jews.

This is a realistic but possibly conservative estimate.

Approximately 40 percent of those receiving payments were living in Israel, 20 percent in West Germany, and 40 percent in the United States and other countries.[

The Atlanta Journal and Constitution newspaper reported in 1985 that an estimated 50 percent of Jewish “survivors throughout the world are on West German pensions.”

But this estimate is very probably too high. For example, Jews in Poland, the Soviet Union, Hungary, Romania, and Czechoslovakia were not eligible for restitution, at least not at that time.

In the United States, only about 66 percent of the Jewish “Holocaust survivors” in the Atlanta (Georgia) area in 1985 had received German restitution money.

If one conservatively estimates that two thirds of the 4.39 million individual claims for German restitution have come from Jews, that would mean some 2.9 million Jewish claims.

And if half of the Jewish “Holocaust survivors” around the world have not received any restitution (which is probably a low figure), and granted that the number of claimants may be somewhat larger than the number of claims, it would appear that some six million European Jews “survived” the Second World War.

(Of course, some European Jews who lived through the war years died before the German BEG restitution law was enacted in 1953.)

And given that there were no more than some eight million European Jews under German wartime control, the number of Jews who died in Europe during the Second World War must be fewer than three million. As we shall see, the actual figure of Jewish wartime dead is substantially lower.

Finally, estimates of “Holocaust survivors” provided in recent years by authoritative Jewish sources cannot be reconciled with the generally accepted “Holocaust” story or the Six Million figure.

Before going further, it is a remarkable fact that, in recent years, the number of “Holocaust survivors” has actually been increasing. This is because – as Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein stresses in his important book, The Holocaust Industry – Israel, the World Jewish Congress, and other major Jewish organizations, all of which demand and collect billions in the name of “Holocaust survivors,” have an interest in inflating figures both of wartime victims and of postwar survivors.

A report issued in July 1997 – that is, fifty-three years after the end of the war – by a committee organized by the Israeli prime minister’s office estimated the number of “Holocaust survivors” (admittedly defined rather broadly) at between 834,000 and 960,000.

A similarly authoritative report issued in June 2000, that is, fifty-five years after the end of the war in Europe, estimated the number of Jewish “Holocaust” survivors at between 832,000 and 935,000.

These figures, Robert Faurisson has written, suggest that there were slightly more than three million Jewish “survivors” in Europe at the end of the 1939–1945 war.

Norman Finkelstein, a professor of political science at Hunter College in New York, and author of The Holocaust Industry, has commented that, on the basis of these Israeli or Jewish figures, there would have been eight million Jewish “Holocaust survivors” in Europe at the end of the war in May 1945. Remarking on this, Finkelstein has said:

There were fewer than eight million Jews in all of Nazi-occupied Europe. In other words, if these numbers are correct, the Holocaust didn’t happen. As my mother used to say, if everyone who claims to be a Holocaust survivor actually is one, who did Hitler kill?

How many Jews did die during the Second World War? A year after the end of the war, an apparently impartial Swiss analysis entitled “How high is the number of Jewish victims?” concluded that no more than 1.5 million European Jews could have perished (of all causes) under German rule during the war. It appeared in June 1946 in the respected daily Baseler Nachrichten of neutral Switzerland. (My higher estimates are between 2 - 3 million.)

The widely-cited figures of between five and six million Jewish dead, the analysis noted, were not based on official sources, but merely private and semi-official estimates that greatly exaggerated the number of Jews that ever came under German control.

Stephen F. Pinter, a U.S. War Department attorney who was stationed in Germany after the war, published a statement in 1959 in which he condemned what he called:

...the old propaganda myth that millions of Jews were killed by the National Socialists.”

He went on to write:

From what I was able to determine during six postwar years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but the figure of a million was certainly never reached. I interviewed thousands of Jews, former inmates of concentration camps in Germany and Austria, and consider myself as well qualified as any man on this subject.

Some revisionist historians have reached similar conclusions.

Arthur Butz and Robert Faurisson have written that as many as one million European Jews may have died of all causes during the war years (not counting those serving in military forces).

Walter Sanning, a European-American scholar and university lecturer, concluded in his detailed 1983 study that total Jewish losses during the Second World War were “in the neighborhood” of 1.25 million, many of whom died as Red Army soldiers or in Soviet camps and forced evacuations.

A common rejoinder to expressions of skepticism about the Six Million is rhetorically to ask:

What difference does it make how many were killed? It would be terrible if just one million, or even one thousand, Jews were murdered.”

To many people, efforts to establish the true numbers seem like insensitive and perhaps irrelevant quibbling. Or to justify the National Socialist regime.

But the skeptics are not the ones who incessantly and insistently go on about Six Million murdered Jews. It is not the revisionists who have made a totem of this legendary figure, or who invoke it as quasi-sacrosanct ritual symbol. In any case, striving for historical exactitude, even about the iconic Six Million, is precisely what historians are supposed to do.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thanks for the info Jesus. Do you have a site or link where I can find the full Korherr report? User anticapitalist does seem to be arguing in bad faith and I appreciate the backup.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did you read all parts. THe part you commented on is Part 5. All the Parts together debunk many of anticapitalists claims, which have been discredited by even the mainstream scholars many years ago.

Here's the report and various beneficial pages on it:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=2097

https://archive.org/details/KorherrReport

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3464

https://codoh.com/library/document/5075/

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

BEST PDF of DOC I found: https://codoh.com/media/files/downloads/StephenChallen-RichardKorherrAndHisReports-CromwellLondon1993.pdf

Translation:

The Inspector for Statistics At the Reichsführer SS

[Stamp: Secret Reich Matter]

THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWISH QUESTION

Statistical Report

C o n t e n t s:

I. Introduction

II. The Balance of Jews in Germany

III. Jewish Population Weakness

IV. The Emigration of Jews from Germany

V. The Evacuation of the Jews

VI. The Jews in the Ghettos

VII. The Jews in the Concentration Camps

VIII. Jews in Penitentiaries

IX. The Use of Jewish Labor

X. European Balance of Jews


THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWISH QUESTION

Statistical Report

I. INTRODUCTION


In order to make a balance of the results on the way to the solution of the Jewish question it is necessary to determine the number of Jews and its development. The contradictions in the data about the number of Jews, however, make necessary an introduction in the sense that numbers about Jewry are always to be taken with special reservation and can lead to wrong conclusions without a knowledge as to their source and as to how they came about.

The sources of mistakes lie mainly in the nature of Jewry and its historical development, in its millenary restless wandering, the countless admissions and withdrawals, the efforts at assimilation, the mixtures with the host peoples, the efforts of Jews to avoid registration and finally the wrong or wrongly interpreted statistics about Jewry.

Furthermore statistics – partially as a statistical makeshift, partially due to the wide coincidence between Jewish faith and Jewish race, partially in ignorance of the idea of race, partially due to the religious thinking of the respective time – have until lastly recorded Jews according to their religious confession and almost never according to their race. The recording of the race requires a training of many years and also ancestry research. It also turned out to be difficult mainly in the southern and eastern countries, given that despite all coincidence a uniform Jewish race was difficult to delimitate. The adhesion to Mosaic or Israeli faith in turn is no fully valid proof, given that due to the former Jewish missionary movement with its taking in of heathens and Christians, and also due to conversions to Jewry and mixed marriages in more recent times, there are not a few confessional Jews of non-Jewish race, while on the other hand forced christianizing and the number of baptized Jews that again increased in the last century, together with the number of non-confessionals of Jewish race, brought down the number of Jews. In 1893 Leroy-Beaulieu estimated the loss of Jewry to Christianity at four to ten times its present-day adherents; according to Maurice Fishberg and Mathias Mieses three time the actual number of Jews have merged with Aryan Europe. Even Hans Günther estimates the number of Jews in Germany at double the number of Jews of Mosaic faith who have German citizenship. The Lithuanian Jew Brutzkus even goes as far as to consider the Jews of Berlin as more pure Europeans, according to the composition of their blood, than the Germans of Berlin.

In accordance with these opinions the number of racial Jews including half-breeds in Europe has been frequently calculated as three times as high as that of the confessional Jews (twice as high in Eastern Europe, four times as high in Central Europe, even eight times as high in the rest of Europe), and the portion of more of less Jewish blood in the European population has been calculated at more or less 6 per cent. On the other hand Burgdörfer estimated the number of Jews in Germany in 1933 at 850 000 full, half and quarter Jews (with 502 799 confessional Jews) and the number of Jews in Austria in 1934 at 300-400 000 (with 191 738 confessional Jews). The recording of racial Jews at the German census on 1939 resulted in 307 892 confessional Jews and the only a little higher number of 330 892 full Jews, 72 738 half Jews and 42 811 quarter Jews, numbers that are by no means to be considered reliable especially in what concerns the half – and quarter Jews. The numbers obtained can thus only be considered as minimum numbers. They came about through the question “Was or is one of the 4 grandparents a full Jew?” contained in a “supplementary form” to the list of households of the 1939 census, which had to be answered by “yes” or “no” for each grandparent. As the supplementary form was to be delivered in a closed envelope and thus beyond control on site, it was wrongly filled in. In many cases only lines were drawn in the respective field, instead of an answer.

The first official attempt to record the Jews according to their race was immediately sabotaged by the Jews. It happened at the Austrian census of 7 March 1923. Vice Chancellor Dr. Frank (Greater German People’s Party) signed a decree shortly before the census, according to which under question 7 of the census sheet (language) "ethnicity and race" were also to be indicated. As the census sheets had already been printed, this was only pointed out in a red reminder sheet without clarification and examples. The Austrian Jews sabotaged this question pursuant to the request, forwarded to its readers by the Jewish-Marxist press on the day immediately before the census date, to answer the question about the race with “white”. The result was that “the “white race turned out to be as widely represented in Austria as the sphere of influence of the Jewish-Marxist press and political parties was”. Only in Kärnten and in the Burgenland the processing of the material was carried out with rather dubious success, in all other federal states and principally in Vienna, however, it was given up as being pointless.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

II. THE BALANCE OF JEWS IN GERMANY


The following data about the number and development of Jews in Germany are based on official census data and other official records of the Reich and on scientific calculations and estimations, but they have mainly been prepared by the Reich Association of the Jews in Germany and by the cult communities in Vienna and Prague, who work with counting, counting forms for population movements, extrapolations and estimates. These Jewish entities work under the control of the Reichssicherheitshaupt [Reich Main Security Office] and for its purposes. Apart from the dubious data about the initial numbers the Reich Association of the Jews in Germany seems to produce reliable work. On the basis of the statistics prepared by this entity and so far checked by the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the following balance on the development of Jewry from before the taking of power (30.1.1933 in the Old Reich, March 1938 in Austria and March 1939 in the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia) until 01.01.1943 can be drawn:

1. Balance of Jews in the Old Reich including Sudetengau and Danzig

  • Number of Jews in the Old Reich(without Sudetengau and Danzig)on 30.1.1933 around 561 000

  • Reduction between 30.1.33 an 1.1.43 through

  • Excess mortality(Old Reich ) - 61 193

  • Excess emigration - 352 534

  • Off-going (Evacuation) - 100 516- 514 243

  • Increase from 30.1.33 to 1.1.43 through Incorporation of the Sudeten-Land + 2 649 x) other changes (Danzig immigration, emigration, authorized withdrawals, recognition as I. degree half breed, new recording, rectification of data sheets + 1 921 + 4 570

  • Number of Jews in the Old Reich (with Sudetengau and Danzig) on 1.1.1943 51 327

2. Balance of Jews in the Ostmark[Austria]

  • Number of Jews in the Ostmark on 1.3.1938 around 220 000

  • Reduction from 1.3.38 to 1.1.43 through

  • Excess mortality - 14 509

  • Excess emigration - 149 124

  • Off-going (Evacuation) - 47 555

  • Other changes - 710 - 211 898

  • Number of Jews in the Ostmark on 1.1.1943 8 102

3. Balance of Jews in the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia

  • Number of Jews in the Protectorate on 15.3.1943 118 310
  • Reduction from 15.3.39 to 1.1.43 through
  • Excess mortality - 7 074
  • Excess emigration - 26 009
  • Off-going (Evacuation) - 69 677 - 102 760

  • Number of Jews in the Protectorate on 1.1.1943 15 550


x) This number of 2 649 Jews in the Sudetenland was established during the census of 1939. Prior to the incorporation of the Sudetenland into the Reich the number of Jews was around 3 . . who however very quickly, without crossing a state border and without losses in patrimony, left for the Protectorate.

In this balance the newly acquired eastern territories (except for Danzig) are not included. A balance for these cannot yet be made. However, there are several estimates about the number of Jews in these areas, which should lead to a number of about 630 000. In addition to these there are 160,000 Jews in the Bialystok district and around 1.3 million Jews in the General Government as at the time of its constitution. This would lead to a total number of Jews in the whole German area (without the occupied eastern territories) of about 2.5 million x) at the end of 1939, the greatest past thereof in the new East.

On 1.1.1943 the Reich without the new eastern territories, the old-age ghetto Theresienstadt and the labor usage within the scope of the Organisation Schmelt had only 74 979 Jews, thereof 51 327 in the Old Reich, 8 102 in the Ostmark and 15 550 in the Protectorate. In the Old Reich with the Sudetenland there are now only 9.2 per cent of the number of Jews on the day of the taking over of power. On 30.1.1943 their number has been further reduced to 48 242 or 8.6 per cent, on 25.2.1943 even further to 44 589 or 7.9 per cent. In Berlin, where already in 1880 there lived one-eighth, in 1910 more than a quarter and in 1933 almost a one third of the Jews of Germany, there are on 1.1.1943 no less than 32 999 or 64.3 per cent of all Jews of the Old Reich, on 30.1.1943 still 30 121, on 28.2.1943 still 27 281.

In the Ostmark there are Jews only in Vienna.

Of the 51 327 Jews in the Old Reich 23 197 are men and 28 130 are women. 40 351 are confessional Jews, 10 976 are non-confessional Jews, 16 760 live in mixed marriages. In the Ostmark the number is 4 803 (out of 8 102), in the Protectorate it is 6 211 (out of 15 550).

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III. JEWISH POPULATION WEAKNESS


The balance of Jews in Germany shows an extraordinary excess mortality that is due not only to a very high mortality of the Jews, but also to the marked scarcity of births. Thus the natural population development in the Old Reich including the Sudetenland from 1933 to 1942 has been as follows (according to the estimates and date of the Reich Association of the Jews in Germany, given that the counting by confessional Jews is much more complicated and unreliable):


x) Without Lemberg district with around 700 000 Jews.

Births and Deaths of Jews in the Old Reich (calculated and estimated until 1939)

Years Births Deaths Excess mortality(-)

1933 3 425 8 925 - 5 500

1934 2 300 8 200 - 5 900

1935 2 500 8 100 - 5 600

1936 2 300 8 000 - 5 700

1937 2 100 8 000 - 5 900

1938 1 000 7 448 - 6 448

1939 610 8 136 - 7 526

1940 396 6 199 - 5 803

1941 351 6 249 - 5 898

1942 239 7 657 - 7 418

1933-1942 15 221 76 914 - 61 693

The excess mortality from the day of taking over of power (30.1.1933) until 1.1.1943 in the Old Reich including the Sudetenland is 61 693; this is the result of 14 921 births versus 76 114 deaths. While the migration on the one hand and the absence of recording in the first year and deficiency of recording since especially in regard to deaths in the concentration camps by the Reich Association of the Jews on the other hand leave room for many errors, the approximate overview shows a constant number of deaths despite the reduction of the number of Jews. Jewish mortality thus amounts to 80-85(against the European average of 10 to 15) in 1000 (in the calendar year 1942).

What is further to be noted is the decrease of births, which by far anticipates the decrease of the number of Jews. The Jewish birth rate in the Old Reich thus amounts to only 2 1/2 in 1 000 in 1942. Also in the Ostmark between 1.3.138 and 1.1.1943 there were 15 188 Jewish deaths for only 679 Jewish births. In the Old Reich there were only 14 Jewish children born in December 1942, 7 an 8 in January and February 1943, respectively. It must in this respect be taken into account that Jewry has topped the civilized Western states in lack of births since decades, as can be seen on hand of the confessional statistics of births. The Jew Felix Theilhaber already in 1911 pointed to the “Demise of German Jewry” resulting therefrom, which was only covered up by the constant influx of Eastern Jewish blood. This phenomenon was only partially related to the over-aging of European big city Jewry: It was mainly due to a real lack of life strength. In the actual extraordinary mortality of the Jews and the extremely low birth rate, however, the Jewish age structure is also a factor to be considered.

After their best classes have gone off, the Jews in Germany are mainly old people, for which reason their age structure, when graphically represented, has the form of a “club”, according to the objectively accurate terminology of the Reich Association of the Jews. There is a lack of children and reproductive classes, whereas the classes of older people are not only much stronger in proportion than the younger classes, but also much stronger in absolute numbers.

This is also one of the reasons for the excessive suicide rate, given that suicide is primarily a cause of death of older people.

IV. THE EMIGRATION OF JEWS FROM GERMANY


The migration of Jews from eastern, central and western Europe and the whole of Europe overseas, mostly to the United States of America, is a generally observed phenomenon. Many Jews emigrated from Germany mainly between 1840 and 1870, but after 1870 emigration stopped almost completely. Now in turn the Germans emigrated. The Jewish emigration from Germany since 1933, in a certain sense a recuperation of the movement that did not occur in 1870, caught the special attention of the whole civilized world, especially the democratic countries ruled by Jews. It was attempted by the most varied entities with the most varied methods to record the number and structure of the emigrants. Yet no uniform results were achieved.

The numbers of the German emigration statistics, those of the Reich Association of the Jews in Germany and of the Israeli cult communities in Vienna and Prague, the numerous foreign recordings, calculations and estimates, the statistics of international Jewry and the numbers of scientific studies show great discrepancies among each other. Professor Zielenziger in Amsterdam, for instance, considered that there were 135 000 emigrants from the taking over of power until the end of 1937, while the Reich Association of the Jews concluded that there had been 203 000 emigrants. Since 1938 emigration increased considerably, but it ended almost completely (save for a few exceptions each month) with the interdiction of Jewish emigration in the autumn of 1941. The Reich Association of Jews and the Israeli cult communities in Vienna and Prague concluded on the following high emigration numbers until 1.1. 1943(including double counting):

Emigrants from Number Period

  • Old Reich with Sudetenland 352 543 (30.1.33-1.1.43)
  • Ostmark 149 124 ( 1.3.38-1.1.43)
  • Protectorate 26 009 (15.2.39-1.1.43)

The hurried emigration in the beginning made exact data impossible. Also the destination of emigration, insofar as it was a European country, is in many cases to be considered a mere intermediate station. Of the emigrants from the Old Reich about 144 000 went to other European countries, about 57 000 went to the USA, 54 000 to South America, 10 000 to Central America, 53 000 to Palestine, 15 000 to Africa(mainly South Africa), 16 000 to Asia (China),

4 000 to Australia. Of the 144 000 Jews who emigrated to European countries more than 32 000 went to England alone, 39 000 went to Poland or the General Government, 18 000 went to France, 8000 to Italy, 7 500 to the Netherlands, 6 000 to Belgium. It is to be assumed that the greater part of these emigrants went on overseas from said countries. For the Jewish emigrants from the Ostmark, the following goals were indicated: 65 500 to European countries, 50 000 to America, 20 000 to Asia, 9 000 to Palestine, 2 600 to Africa, 2 000 to Australia.

V. THE EVACUATION OF THE JEWS


The evacuation of the Jews replaced the emigration of the Jews, at least on the territory of the Reich. It was extensively prepared since the prohibition of Jewish emigration in the autumn of 1941 and to a large extent carried out throughout the Reich territory in the year 1942. In the balance of Jewry it is referred to as "off-going".

Until 1.1.1943, according to the records of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the following numbers went off:

  • the Old Reich with Sudetenland 100 516 Jews
  • From the Ostmark 47 555 "
  • From the Protectorate 69 677 "
  • Sum 217 748 Jews

In these numbers the Jews evacuated to the old-age ghetto Theresienstadt are also included.

All evacuations on the territory of the Reich and including the eastern territories and further in the German area of power and influence in Europe from October 1939 or later until 31.12.1942 resulted in the following numbers:

  1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate to France ....... 6 504 Jews

  2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich territory incl. the Protectorate and Bialystok district to the East...... 170 642 "

  3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich area and the Protectorate to Theresienstadt................. 87 193

  4. Transportation of Jews from the eastern provinces to the Russian East: ............................ 1 449 692

"The following numbers were sifted through the camps in the General government ..................... 1 274 166

Jews through the camps in the Warthegau..... 145 301 Jews

  1. Evacuation from other countries, namely:

France (insofar as occupied before 10.11.1942 )............... 41 911 Jews

Netherlands........................ 38 571 "

Belgium............................ 16 886 "

Norway ........................... 532 "

Slovakia................. 56 691 Jews

Crotia ................ 4 927 "


Evacuations total(incl.

Theresienstadt and incl.

special treatment)........... 1 873 549 Jews

w./o Theresienstadt.......... 1 786 356 "

  1. In addition, according to data from the Reichssicherheitshauptamt there is the evacuation of... 633 300 Jews in the Russian territories incl. the former Baltic countries since the beginning of the Eastern Campaign.

The above numbers do not include the inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps.

The evacuations from Slovakia and Croatia were carried out by these states themselves.

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VI. THE JEWS IN THE GHETTOS


There must be mentioned here:

  1. The old age ghetto Theresienstadt, to which there were led a total of: 87 193 Jews,

thereof from the Reich 47 471 (Ostmark 14 222) " " Protectorate 39 722.

At the beginning of the year 1943 it had a total of Jewish inmates: 49 392

Thereof with German nationality 24 313

Protectorate nationality 25 079

The reduction occurred mainly by deaths.

Besides Theresienstadt there are on the territory of the Reich a number of Jewish old age and sick homes with smaller capacity, which however are considered as neither ghettoes nor evacuation sites.

  1. The ghetto Litzmannstadt at the beginning of 1943 had 87 180 Jews, thereof 83 133 with former Polish nationality.

  2. The numbers Jews placed in other ghettos of the General Government as of 31.12.1942 are indicated or estimated as follows:

District Number of Jews

Cracow 37 000

Radom 29 000

Lublin 20 000 (estimated)

Warsaw 50 000

Lemberg 161 514

General Gov. sum 297 914

VII. THE JEWS IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS


In the concentration camps there were, from the taking over of power to 31.12.1942 73 417 interments of Jews thereof released 36 943 died 27 347

Remainder as per 31.12.42: 9 127 Jews

It must be taken into account that the number of internments of Jews is higher than the number of Jews in the concentration camps, as repeated internments of one Jews are counted repeatedly.

Not included are the Jews accommodated in the concentration camps Auschwitz and Lublin within the scope of the evacuation action.

For the various concentration camps we have, divided by internments, releases, deaths and the status as of 31.12.1942, the following numbers:

Jews in the Concentration Camps

Concentration Camp; Internments; Releases; Deaths; Status as of 31.12.1942

Lublin/Men; 23 409; 4 509; 14 217; 4 683

Lublin/Women; 2 849; 59; 131; 2 659

Auschwitz/Men 4 917; 1; 3 716; 1 200

Auschwitz/Women 932; -; 720 ; 212

Buchenwald 16 827; 13 805; 2 795; 227

Mauthausen/Gusen 2 064; -; 1 985; 79

Sachsenhausen 7 960; 6 570; 1 344; 46

Stutthof/Men 28; -; 13; 15

Stutthof/Women 3; -; -; 3

Ravensbrück/Women 1 321; 531; 787; 3

Ravensbrück/Men 273; 44; 229; -

Dachau 12 026; 11 140; 886; -

Groß-Rosen 231; -; 231; -

Lichtenburg 195; 195; -; -

Neuengamme 192; 2; 190; -

Floßenbürg 80; 2; 78; -

Sachsenburg 52; 52; -; -

Esterwegen 36; 33; 3; -

Niederhagen 12; -; 12; -

Natzweiler 10; -; 10; -

Sum all camps 73 417; 36 943; 27 347; 9 127

VIII. JEWS IN PENITENTIARIES


At the beginning of the year 1943 there were in the penitentiaries on the territory of the Reich 458 Jews, distributed among men and women and the various types of detention as follows:

Men Women Sum

Criminal detention 350 78 428

Security detention 29 - 29

Work House - 1´ 1

Penitentiaries

Together 379 79 458

IX. THE USE OF JEWISH LABOR


Working for the war effort at the beginning of the year 1943 there were on the territory of the Reich

185 776 Jews

They were employed as follows:

1) within the inspector areas of the security police and the SD (without Posen and without Soviet Russian Jews) 21 659, thereof 18 546 with German nationality, 107 with Protectorate nationality, 2 519 stateless and 487 foreigners. They were distributed by the inspection areas without Posen) as follows:

Berlin 15 100 Königsberg 2) 96

Braunschweig 110 München 313

Breslau 1) 2 451 Nürnberg 89

Danzig - Salzburg 7

Dresden 485 Stettin 18

Düsseldorf 673 Stuttgart 178

Hamburg 497 Wien 1 226

Kassel 259 Wiesbaden 139


1) without Organization Schmelt 2)without Soviet Russian Jews

2) in the inspector area Königsberg there are a further 18 435 foreign, i.e. almost exclusively Soviet Russian Jews.

3) in the inspector area Posen there are in ghetto – and camp employment 95 112 mainly Polish Jews.

4) within the scope of Organization Schmelt (Breslau) there are 50 570 Jews, thereof 42 382 stateless and 8 188 foreigners.

X. EUROPEAN BALANCE OF JEWS

The collapse of European Jewry was initiated decades ago by the population demise of European big city Jewry on the one hand and Jewish emigration on the other. The Jewish statistician Lestschinsky in 1927 clarified the reduction of European Jewry as follows: "At the beginning of the 19th century 85 % of all Jews lived in Europe, 80 % in Russia, Austria-Hungary and Germany alone; in America there were only 2 - 3 000 Jews at this time. In 1925 63 % of all Jews lived in Europe; within the borders of Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia there were only 57 % of all Jews, while in America there were 30 % and in the rest of the world 7 %". According to the calculations of the Reich Institute of Statistics the part of European Jews in 1880 was even 88.4 per cent, while in 1937 it was only 60.4 per cent. In 1943 the European part of World Jewry should still be 1/3.

Around 1930 and in the last years the number of Jews in some more important European states was the following:

State; Census in year; Number of Jews; More recent counting of estimate: Number of Jews in 1 000; per cent of population of host people


Old Reich; 1933/35; 502 799; 1943; 51; 0,07

Austria; 1934; 191 481; 1943; 8; 0,1

Czechoslovakia; 1930; 356 830; .; .; .

  • Protectorate .; .; 1943; 16; 0,2

Danzig; 1929; 10 448; .; .; .

Memel Area; 1925; 2 402; 1937; 3; 2,0


Belgium; .; .; 1937; 80; 1,0

Bulgaria; 1934; 48 398; 1937; 50; 0,8

Finland .; .; 1937; 2; 0,04

France .; .; 1937; 280; 0,7

Greece 1928; 72 791; 1937; 90; 1,1

Great Britain 1931/33; 234 000; 1937; 345; 0,7

Italy 1930; 47 825; 1937; 52; 0,1


Ireland .; .; 1936; 4; 0,1

Yugoslavia 1930; 68 405; 1937; 75; 0,3

Latvia 1935; 93 479; 1937; 96; 4,9

Lithuania 1923; 155 125; 1937; 175; 7,4

Netherlands 1930; 111 917; 1937; 135; 1,6

Poland 1930; 3 113 933; 1937; 3 300; 9,6

Romania 1930; 984 213; 1941; 302 1); 2,2

Slovakia .; .; 1940; 89; 3,4

Soviet Russia 1926; 2 570 330; 1939; 4 600 2); 2,4

Hungary 1930; 444 567; 1940; 750 3); 5,8


1) New territorial status

2) New territorial status, with East Poland; the number was estimated.

3) New territorial status; the number was calculated

The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe. They concentrate or concentrated mainly in the former Polish-Russian areas occupied by Germany between the Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland and between the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, further in the centers of commerce and the Rhine area of Central and Western Europe and on the coasts of the Mediterranean.

From 1937 to the beginning of 1943 the number of Jews, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories which are here counted as off-going, should have diminished by an estimated 4 million. It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all. In addition there are movements of Jews inside Russia to the Asian part which are unknown to us. The movement of Jews from the European countries outside the German influence is also of a largely unknown order of magnitude. On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population.

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Prelude Part 1


Apart from the assertions in the paper you linked that are not based on physical evidence, it says this in the Haartz article, and I did base my assertions on census data and what we know. The six million figure is not based on what we observe through facts and figures. So, firstly, Let's talk about your source. It states:

...4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.”

Most notable among these were the Roma, or Gypsies, with estimates of the number killed ranging from 90,000 to 1.5 million.

Six million” is not, and was never intended to be, a precise accounting. But the number, which has now been part of the public consciousness for more than 50 years, would never have continued to be cited if it did not mirror the scholarly tallies that have followed in the succeeding decades, and confirmed that rough figure.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880

So, this testimony is hearsay. Just because a Zionist National Socialist (in Eichman's memoirs he claims to be a Zionist more than a Nazi) in a Kangaroo court trial tells us exactly six million Jews perished; four million in extermination camps, does not make it true. Eichmann and Hoetll in fact could have easily lied and did fabricate many stories as exposed by various scholars, intelligence agencies as well as declassified documents over the years.

Testimony: Trustworthy?


So, where does the figure of 6 million victims come from?

Considering the amount of original research that has been done in recent decades, is this number still considered accurate by scholars of the subject?

The number seems to have first been mentioned by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, an Austrian-born official in the Third Reich and a trained historian who served in a number of senior positions in the SS.

In November 1945, Hoettl testified for the prosecution in the Nuremberg trials of accused Nazi war criminals. Later, in the 1961 trial in Israel of Adolf Eichmann, he also submitted to a lengthy series of questions from the prosecution, speaking under oath from a courtroom in Austria.

Hoettl later confided in a published letter that the '6,000,000' account was a lie....which he had claimed to have heard from Eichmann.

"The government of Israel has always been afraid that the Eichmann book would compete with the verdict of the court"

After Gideon Hausner, the prosecutor in the Eichmann trial, cautioned that publication of the memoirs could compete with the verdict, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion ordered the manuscript locked away for 15 years at which time that decision would be reviewed.

"But the decision was not reviewed and the document continued to remain under lock.

Eichmann was very meticulous in his recording and refers to some sketches and diagrams. One of the diagrams outlines the Gestapo hierarchy with Eichmann being near the bottom.

see: Los Angeles Times, Feb.29, 2000

An interesting letter on Eichmann by Paul Grubach. Here we see that the 'holocaust' Industry's own have rejected Eichmann's 'testimonies:

Mark Roseman:

Eichmann, for his part, was at pains to establish a clear set of orders that absolved him of responsibility."

Adolf Eichmann spoke more openly, but his testimony is unreliable, particularly on his own aspirations, concerned as he was to portray himself as a dutiful errand boy, with neither initiation nor knowledge."

Both Rudolf Hoess's and Eichmann's testimonies lack credibility."

Grubach:

On pages 97-98, he claims that Eichmann invented false claims. Then, on page 104, he again claims that Eichmann's defense strategy "was to establish that his superiors had given clear killing orders."

On his alleged pre-arrest 'memoirs', well...these 'memoirs' also have him describing himself as being more of a Zionist than an SS officer, which is quite interesting.

Eichmann clearly copy-catted now debunked material given to him:

1.) He refers to reading the 'holocaust' Industry's Reitlinger for 'information'.

2.) He had a heavily annotated copy of the discreditied Hoess memoirs, published in Germany in 1957.

3.) His preposterous statements that diesel submarine motors were used in gas chambers and that the hair of the victims was used to make slippers are from the bogus Gerstein claims. Gerstein's affidavit became very widely known right after the war. Gerstein made many different & absurdly conflicting 'confessions' as has been demonstrated by Frenchman Henri Rocques.

4.) Eichmann claims being ordered to go to Lemberg:

"There had been a pit there, it was already filled in, and blood was gushing out of it...how shall I say?...like a geyser. I've never seen anything like it. I'd had enough of that mission".

Which was taken from laughable testimony at the Einsatzgruppen Show Trials of 1947.

I wonder who told him to say that?

Elie Wiesel claimed that at Babi Yar, a place in the Ukraine where the Germans allegedly executed 34,000 Jews:

Later, I learn from a witness that, for month after month, the ground never stopped trembling; and that, from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from it.

Paroles d'étranger (Editions du Seuil, 1982), p. 86


When a man is kidnapped, held in solitary confinement, and fighting for his life it's not difficult to see why he would say just about anything.

We must also ask how the accusers can conduct a trial of the accused? It is necessarily a bogus, unfair trial.

And then we're back to the fact that there is no physical evidence, no documentary evidence, and the 'extermination' methods as alleged are scientifically impossible. That does not mean Jews were not imprisoned, confined and executed, possibly up to a million in Nazi and Soviet camps.

Furthermore, in 2003, Browning concluded:

“Clearly, anyone who wants to dismiss Eichmann’s testimonies on the grounds of their demonstrated unreliability and shameless self-serving lies can easily do so, and many of my colleagues have done precisely this [p.11].”

In his precapture statements, Eichmann claimed that he saw the alleged homicidal gas chambers of Majdanek, a concentration camp in Poland. Browning informed his readers in 2003 that these “observations” are not credible:

In both precapture accounts, Eichmann’s dating is vague. Furthermore, the claims that gassing was already taking place in this first camp, or that it was Majdanek, are contrary to what we know from other sources. The precapture testimonies, in short, are helpful to neither the historian nor Eichmann’s credibility [p.23].”

In plain language, Eichmann never saw the “gas chambers” he claimed to have seen at Majdanek. Actually nobody has; all the gas chambers alleged so far have turned out to be delousing chambers, and are proven to be scientifically inconsistent with the alleged extermination chambers used to kill at a mathematically impossible frequency. I'm willing to get in more detail concerning this aspect. However, let's focus on your sources.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5262‬

So just to summarize Eichmann's precapture "testimony" is worthless as it contains so many errors and contradictions that it can be just completely ignored and has been by many scholars.

Also, the alleged Sassen recordings have never been released for scrutiny. Why not? Why should we believe edited and alleged excerpts that were printed in Life magazine but the alleged tapes never released. What are they hiding

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Drop in Population? Part 2


As for the drop in Jewish population via consensus data:

Any sane person would soon accept that six million jews did not die. But when one checks the data above it becomes even more bizarre.

Just look at the 1989 and 2001 figures. In three years the world Jewish population dropped by nearly 5.5 million. Was there another holocaust we did not know of?

Thus I can only suggest that any counting of Jewish numbers around the world at any stage in history should be questioned. How on earth could an American organization accurately know how many jews were living in Russia, Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Belarus etc., before the second world war?

Now what the consensus data in population does show is a decrease but nowhere close to the six million figure. In higher estimates we come to 2.5 million which I have backed up via various documents, work orders, and consensus data from other organizations.

The Six Million Figure?


In June 1945, before the trial began, the man who was organizing it, U.S. Chief Prosecutor Robert Jackson, met three lawyers representing major influential Jewish organizations. Jackson wanted to get their input for the upcoming trial. Regarding Jewish population losses, Jackson asked them straight forward:

How great were those [Jewish] losses?”

One of those lawyers, Dr. Robinson, responded spontaneously:

Six million.”

But how could he have known this?

The mystery deepens as we go back in time. Already in December of 1944, when the Allied armies were about to enter Germany, the Soviet propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg wrote in the Soviet’s English language newspaper Soviet War News, as reproduced here (Dec. 22, 1944, pp. 4f.):

In regions they seized, the Germans killed all the Jews, from the old folk to infants in arms. Ask any German prisoner why his fellow countrymen annihilated six million innocent people, and he will reply quite simply: ‘Why, they were Jews.’”

That’s not the only time this symbolic figure appeared in that propaganda newspaper published for Anglo-Saxon readers. It was repeated in the issues of January 4 and March 15, 1945. We read there:

The world now knows that Germany has killed six million Jews.”

Those articles were re-discovered by the German historian Dr. Joachim Hoffmann who has reproduced them in the appendix to his 2001 book Stalin’s War of Extermination, see its front cover here on the right.

Here the same question comes to mind: How could Ehrenburg know that six million had been killed before even a single Allied soldier had set foot onto German soil?

By remarkable coincidence, some twenty-five years earlier the American Jewish community had been warning of a “holocaust” of six million Jews in Europe. In an address published in 1919 in a leading Jewish American paper, the American Hebrew of New York City, under the headline “The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop!,” the former governor of New York state, Martin Glynn, spoke repeatedly of “six million” European Jews who were “dying” and “being whirled toward the grave” in a “threatened holocaust of human life.”

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Wilhelm Höttl (sometimes spelled Hoettl): Is he Credible? Part 3


Given all this, it is hardly surprising that someone was found to provide “proof” for the Six Million figure at the most extravagant judicial undertaking in history, the 1945–46 trial in Nuremberg of Hermann Göring, Rudolf Hess, and other high-ranking Third Reich personalities.

The legendary figure was fixed in history at the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, where it was cited by chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross in his closing address, and by the Allied judges in their final judgment.

This figure was not the result of any careful investigation, research, or calculation.

The only specific evidence presented for it to the Nuremberg Tribunal was the hearsay testimony of former SS officer Wilhelm Höttl (sometimes spelled Hoettl), who said that he recalled it from a remark by Adolf Eichmann, the wartime head of the Jewish affairs section of Himmler’s Reich Security Main Office (RSHA).

Höttl, who also served with the RSHA during the war, stated in an affidavit dated November 26, 1945, and provided to the U.S. prosecution at Nuremberg, that Eichmann confided to him in August 1944 that some four million Jews had been killed in the “various extermination camps,” and another two million had been killed in other ways, mostly in shootings by Einsatzgruppen forces in the course of the military campaign in Russia.

Eichmann himself, it should be noted, later called the Höttl story:

"Nonsense.”

Vigorously denied ever having made the alleged remark, and speculated that Höttl may have picked up the figure from a radio or newspaper report.

If it were not for Wilhelm Höttl’s role in branding into the world’s consciousness the trademark Six Million figure, his place in history would likely be little more than a footnote.

But alas, Who was this man, and how reliable is his historic affidavit?

He was born in Vienna in March 1915. In 1938, at the remarkably young age of twenty-three, he received a doctorate in history from the University of Vienna. While still a student there, he joined the National Socialist party and the SS. From 1939 until the end of the war in Europe, Höttl was employed almost without interruption by Germany’s central intelligence agency, the RSHA. He was first stationed in Vienna with the “foreign bureau” (Amt Ausland, later Amt VI), and then, from early 1943, in Berlin in the “Southeastern Europe” branch E of Amt VI, with the SS rank of major (Sturmbannführer).

In March 1944 Höttl was assigned to Budapest, where he served as second in command to Himmler’s SS representative in Hungary, and as political advisor to Hitler’s ambassador there, Edmund Veesenmayer, who reported to Berlin, for example, on the large-scale deportations in 1944 of Jews from Hungary.

On May 8, 1945, as German forces were unconditionally surrendering to the Allies, American troops arrested Höttl in Austria, and for several years after that he worked as an intelligence agent for the United States.

He died in 1999, not long after the publication of his self-serving memoirs.

In April 2001 the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency made public thousands of pages of long-suppressed documents from its files of major German wartime figures, including the bulging Höttl file.

Along with the release of these documents, two U.S. government employees wrote and issued a detailed report about Höttl based on those recently declassified CIA files, which sheds revealing light on his wartime and postwar career.

This report, entitled “Analysis of the Name File of Wilhelm Hoettl,” was written by two “historical researchers” of the U.S. government’s “Interagency Working Group” (IWG), Miriam Kleiman and Robert Skwirot.

These documents establish that Höttl was a completely unreliable informant who routinely fabricated information to please those who were willing to pay him.

In their report, the two U.S. government researchers write:

Hoettl’s name file is approximately 600 pages, one of the largest of those released to the public so far. The size of the file owes to Hoettl’s postwar career as a peddler of intelligence, good and bad, to anyone who would pay him.

Reports link Hoettl to twelve different intelligence services, including the U.S., Yugoslav, Austrian, Israeli, Romanian, Vatican, Swiss, French, West German, Russian, Hungarian and British.

Soon after his arrest by the Americans in May 1945, Höttl began working for the U.S. Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the predecessor to the Central Intelligence Agency, and then for the U.S. Army’s Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC).

As the two U.S. government researchers put it:

Upon his arrest, Hoettl played to the interests of his captors …”

It was during this period, while he was secretly working for American intelligence, that Höttl provided his historic and damning “six million” affidavit for submission by the American prosecution at the Allied-run tribunal at Nuremberg.

Höttl benefited from his readiness to tell those who paid him what they wanted to hear, but this eventually proved his undoing. All the same, it took several years for U.S. intelligence to firmly conclude that it was being had.

In June 1949 one U.S. intelligence official cautioned against using Höttl for any reason, calling him:

A man of such low character and poor political record that his use for intelligence activities, regardless of how profitable they may be, is a short-sighted policy by the U.S.”

In August 1950, CIA messages referred to Höttl as:

Notorious fabricator [of] intelligence.”

A U.S. Army CIC report in early 1952 deemed his information useless, noting that Höttl:

...is involved in extensive intelligence activities for almost anyone who is willing to purchase his findings.”

In April 1952 his reports were called:

...worthless and possibly inflated or fabricated.”

Interestingly, numerous U.S. intelligence reports identify connections between Höttl and Simon Wiesenthal, the well-known “Nazi hunter.”

One U.S. Army CIC document described Wiesenthal as the:

“Chief Austrian Agent of the Israeli Intelligence Bureau.”

A U.S. Army CIC report in January 1950 noted that for the last three or four months Wiesenthal had:

...recruited the services of Wilhelm Höttl,” and had hired him to gather information for reports by the “Nazi hunter.”

In July 1952, when U.S. Army intelligence finally broke completely with Höttl, a letter on U.S. Army stationery warned:

Dr. Höttl has long been known to this headquarters and other allied military organizations in Austria as a fabricator of intelligence information. His reports normally consist of a fine cobweb of fact, heavily padded with lies, deceit, conjecture and other false types of information. This organization will have absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Höttl or any members of his present entourage. He is persona non grata to the American, French and British elements in Austria.

In their report on his postwar career, U.S. government historical researchers Kleiman and Skwirot conclude:

The voluminous materials in Wilhelm Höttl’s personality file … trace the activities of a notorious intelligence peddler and fabricator, who successfully convinced one intelligence service after another of his value, and then proceeded to lose such support.

Indeed, and as already noted, Höttl:

“successfully convinced”

...the American and British prosecutors, and the judges, of the inter-Allied tribunal in Nuremberg, and many others around the world ever since, that German authorities killed six million Jews during the Second World War. And even though U.S. intelligence services and U.S. government researchers have, finally, as it were, discredited him, Höttl’s most historically important claim remains widely, and even officially accepted. The recently released U.S. intelligence documents on Höttl, and the U.S. government report about his postwar career, confirm what some revisionist scholars have contended for years.

In his pathbreaking book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, first published in 1976, Dr. Arthur Butz cited sources that were publicly available even in the 1950s to show that, during the war, Höttl had gotten into trouble more than once with SS authorities.

His involvement in a shady Polish land deal led in 1942 to an SS investigation of his activities. An internal SS report characterized him as:

“dishonest, scheming, fawning,… a real hoaxer,” and concluded that he was not fit even for SS membership, let alone a sensitive intelligence service position.

Höttl was, accordingly, demoted. But his luck improved after his friend and fellow Austrian, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, was appointed in 1943 to head the RSHA. It seems that Kaltenbrunner protected him from a second disciplinary action, this one for misappropriation of security service funds.

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The Six Million Figure in Detail Part 4


Regardless of the unreliability of Höttl’s infamous affidavit, the more important question remains: How valid is the six million figure?

The most common technique used by Holocaust historians to calculate figures of between five and six million Jewish extermination victims is to compare prewar and postwar estimated Jewish population figures for various European countries and areas, and then assume that the differences between the figures were all killed. That I have already mentioned above.

This was the method used, for example, by Jacob Lestchinsky to produce a figure of 5,957,000 Jewish Holocaust deaths, in his important 1946 World Jewish Congress report.

It is also the technique used by the late Lucy Dawidowicz, another prominent Jewish Holocaust historian, who estimated a total of 5.9 million Jewish victims.

However, this method fails to take into account substantial numbers of Jews who emigrated or fled to Allied or neutral countries during the war years. It also ignores the fact that many Jews, particularly in Eastern Europe, did not return to their original homelands at the end of the war, but instead emigrated to Palestine, the United States, and other countries beyond Europe.

It further assumes that all Jewish deaths (or “losses”) were due to German or Axis policy.

Thus, all Jews in areas under German or Axis control who died during the war years are routinely and misleadingly counted as “victims of the Holocaust,” regardless of the cause of death. This includes Jews who died of natural causes, perished in Allied bombings of cities and concentration camps, who died as Allied soldiers, particularly in the Soviet military, or who – like hundreds of thousands of German civilians – succumbed to exhaustion, disease, and exposure in the particularly catastrophic final months of the war. Raul Hilberg, probably the most prominent Holocaust historian, acknowledges that a distinction should be made between:

"Jewish losses” and "Holocaust victims.”

He notes, for example, that the average age of Jews in Germany at the outbreak of the war was abnormally high anyway.

It is unlikely that there were ever six million Jews under German control during the war.

The wartime representative of the World Jewish Congress in Switzerland, Gerhard Riegner, confidentially reported to London and Washington in August 1942 that the total number of Jews in the countries occupied or controlled by Germany was three and a half to four million.

This figure presumably referred to Jews in the “Greater” German Reich (including Poland), as well as in France, Holland, Belgium, Slovakia, and the occupied Soviet territories.

If one adds the approximately 1.2 million Jews estimated to be living in Hungary and Romania, the total number of Jews that came under direct or indirect German control during the war years could not have been more than 5.2 million.

The unreliable character of the legendary Six Million calculation is also shown in the manipulation of Holocaust statistics in the cases of specific countries. In this regard, it is much more fruitful to examine Jewish losses in western European countries, where much more reliable statistics and other data are available, than to attempt to estimate Jewish losses in such eastern territories as Poland, where reliable data is not available. (In the case of Poland, even the country’s borders changed drastically during and just after the war.)

An important feature of these manipulations is that even though figures of alleged Jewish wartime losses in individual countries may be inflated and deflated over the years, there is an obvious effort to juggle figures so that the overall total is kept as high as possible.

The Case of Denmark Consider, for example, the case of Denmark. In 1946 the:

“Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry” announced in its widely quoted report that, out of a total of 5.7 million European Jews who perished during the war years, 1,500 were Danish Jews.

Raul Hilberg, in his highly regarded, three-volume 1985 study, gave a similar figure of 1,000 Danish Jews “lost” during the war years.

In fact, fewer than 500 Jews were ever even deported from Denmark. (Most Danish Jews fled to Sweden in 1943.)

All of these deportees from Denmark were sent to the ghetto-camp of Theresienstadt (or Terezin) where precisely 51 Danish Jews (mostly elderly) died, all of natural causes.

Thus, even if these 51 are counted as “Holocaust victims,” Jewish “losses” for Denmark were exaggerated approximately 30 times by the supposedly authoritative “Anglo-American Committee,” and 19 times the true figure by Hilberg.