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[–]Only71Genders 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (165 children)

No one can confirm anything major about history was a factual event. That's the nature of human knowledge. We can make some solid assumptions though. But videos and pics can be faked or misleading. Stats can be lied about. Stories too. For all we know, only ten thousand Jews actually died in German custody. Or ten million. There is no confirming any of it. Just estimates and assumptions to fit a narrative.

[–]Buri 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (80 children)

No. We have a very good idea what happened. This isn’t a conspiracy.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Yeah, we have good numbers since the red cross was allowed observers in the camps.

https://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

Much harder to know how many died in less documented events, like the Holodomor.

https://borgenproject.org/holodomor-genocide/

Source of that image: Documents sur l'activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945 (Geneva, 1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC during the Second World War (Geneva, 1947). The team of authors, headed by Frédéric Siordet, explained in the opening pages of the Report that their objective, in the tradition of the Red Cross, had been strict political neutrality.

[–]Anticapitalist 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (67 children)

we have good numbers since the red cross was allowed observers in the camps.

The Red Cross said that's bullshit. The Red Cross (the ICRC) denies that they ever made those statistics:

  • "In the 1978 official bulletin, entitled "False Propaganda", the ICRC denounced Holocaust denial and confirmed that the agency "Never published—or even compiled—statistics of this kind which are being falsely attributed to it" and stated that its mission was "to help war victims, not to count them",[84][85][86] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[84][86] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[84][86] and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Marou, you are denying the holocaust with out of context info. I see holocaust deniers using that same image all the time.

Maybe you read this from some neo-nazis and didn't realize how vulgar this is, but you are using the very cruel and irrational talking points of nazis.

/u/Buri, thank you for explaining that the holocaust is not a conspiracy theory.

I really hope this website doesn't get taken over by the nazi/kkk people like what happened to voat.

[–]hsacdvhkl 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Kek, using a wikipedia link, the most kiked site on the plant.

[–]RuckFeddit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

wikipedia proves it's real

lmfao

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

wikipedia proves it's real

No, The Red Cross itself was the source.

Wikipedia just hosted text about this.

[–]RuckFeddit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Provide a link then. I read the Wikipedia link and their 1 citation is a random book nobody knows about. (Typical JIDF) Also, the Rothschilds have been involved with the Red Cross since its inception.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

and their 1 citation is a random book nobody knows about.

Wrong. Wiki referenced two books & the ICRC bulletin itself.

Btw, calling a book "random" is not evidence that the Red Cross didn't make the statement.

You can google even more sources for this bulletin, but you'd probably say "all those websites are a conspiracy by the jews and the Rothchilds."

lso, the Rothschilds have been involved with the Red Cross since its inception.

This just another conspiracy theory attempt to deny the holocaust.

[–]RuckFeddit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

you're probably going to call everything a conspiracy
calls opposing point a conspiracy

this is you

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm not the conspiracy person here: the Nazis openly admitted what they did and tried to justify it after the war, eg at the Nuremberg trials.

Nazi police officer:

  • "I made the effort to only shoot children. It so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand. My neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her. Because I reasoned with myself that after all, without it's mother the child could not live any longer. It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release children unable to live without their mother."

https://youtu.be/O8UzmLsXGRU?t=1165 YouTube

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Marou, you are denying the holocaust with out of context info. I see holocaust deniers using that same image all the time.

Let's suppose that's true, at least it wouldn't be the first time 6 million jews died that century.

https://files.catbox.moe/tc65w0.jpg

Poor survivors: https://www.bitchute.com/video/f494StgGbykO/

It's a shame Churchill and others involved didn't mention anything about it in their memoirs. I'm sure if people hadn't waited until the 60's and 70's to realize it happened they would have been able to find some evidence other than "witness accounts".

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

it wouldn't be the first time 6 million jews died that century.

Even if those blurry newspaper texts are all real, a newspaper saying that 6 million jewish people were in poverty & hungry is not evidence that the holocaust wasn't real.

That number could just be a coincidence.

I didn't read every single blurry text in that image, but I didn't see any which said 6 million jews died of anything.

But even if 6 million jews died in some 1920s illness (or something) that could still be coincidence, it still wouldn't be evidence that the holocaust was fake.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You know the 6 million number has significance in Tulmudic Gnosticism, yeah? That's why it appears over and over. It has little bearing on anything in reality. Old thread on the topic:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=6017

"Now in the Judaism argument the concept of the 'Guzma' comes of importance. The 'Guzma' is a rabbinical concept, which is used to express the scale of a catastrophe ('shoah'), i.e. the number of jews who have suffered and/or died, in terms related to the tales of the Written Torah. Now the 'Guzma' relies on the Talmud Bavli (I forget the precise citations as the thing is huge) in so far as it calculates the extent of a 'shoah' by taking the number of jews the Bavli says came out of Egypt with Moses in the Torah (600,000) and then multiplies it by a number to express how serious and awful a 'shoah' the event is (from what I've read usually 1 to 10 given that jewish audiences became less accepting of insane figures at least as early as the 19th century). Thus 600,000 x 10 = 6,000,000 (i.e a truly biblical shoah). So in this argument we have rabbis explaining the scale of a 'shoah', which they cannot know, by using the concept of the 'Guzma' to create a number which can then be passed along to other rabbis around the world as a representation of the scale of the 'shoah' which has occurred or is occurring: hence the '6,000,000' claim."

It's religious significance is why such wild claims are made, and good god there are so many. All completely illegal to question in Europe. https://files.catbox.moe/lohtlg.jpg

People like to be thought of as martyrs.

Certainly the Nazi's killed many Jews, by firing squad; many having been involved in communist insurrection. Others were worked to death, and still more died of Typhus and starvation once allies cut the supply lines. Based on census numbers before and after the war, and many other metrics, it was between 2 and 400,000.

There was no concentrated effort however, to exterminate a people that could be put to use to perform labor. The Germans are an efficient people. The jews they killed, died by firearm - not bugspray.

https://files.catbox.moe/ygg1tb.png

The holodomor, by contrast. Was an intentional genocide of Ukranian Christians by Marxist Jews. Unlike the holocaust there is physical evidence and orders, and there were and are millions of bodies as proof. This is a classic case of projecting your crimes upon your enemy. Something the left is still exceedingly good at doing today.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

600,000) and then multiplies it by a number to express how serious and awful a 'shoah' the event is (from what I've read usually 1 to 10 given that jewish audiences became less accepting of insane figures at least as early as the 19th century). Thus 600,000 x 10 = 6,000,000 (i.e a truly biblical shoah).

So, the official Red Cross documented 291,000 figure is just under 0.5 shoah?

That might be the worst "shoah" on record. :-/

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That entire post is a conspiracy theory.

The many millions of people who disappeared in nazi germany (whether jewish, gay, etc) were killed as proven by all the death camps found, and the nazis were so incredibly evil they were even killing children. There's all sorts of records of them admitting this, and even portraying themselves as compassionate for doing it.

And again, the number of 6m was based off estimates that 6m jewish people disappeared. Even if 6m was a number used before that could just be a coincidence.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

proven by all the death camps found

There is no evidence. Scratch the surface and all you have are "Survivor accounts". What we're allowed to see are carefully filtered to the people making wild claims. Anything else is censored and destroyed.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/0Y7c27fda3wj/

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

proven by all the death camps found There is no evidence.

Have you literally never seen the photos of the nazi death camps?

Please just look at the images, eg here's some and here's some more.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes I've seen that and I still haven't seen anyone mention anything of importance on it. The fact that there are various estimates, eg 6 million jews in both poland and the ukraine, appear to be nothing but a bunch of coincidences. Same with figures about poverty/etc.

The estimate that the nazis killed 6 million jews came in big part from nazi estimates.

[–]Buri 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This has GOT to be trolls at work. No one is that stupid on purpose.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This has GOT to be trolls at work. No one is that stupid on purpose.

IMO these nazis are very serious 😐. And they are trying to soften their language so people don't even realize they're nazis. They're growing in numbers. They form nazi circlejerks where they all pretend everything is a jewish conspiracy theory.

I have a growing folder of debunks for these people.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, totally. All these people here, are members of the National Socialist Grrman Workers Party. Makes sense. /s

[–]Buri 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had no idea this is where they come to troll.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

The burden is on you to prove the holocaust not the revisionists to disprove it.

You just said yourself that the red cross is not a reliable source because they claim to have not gone in all the camps. So the burden on you to provide a reliable source that went into all the camps and confirms the 6 million and confirms that they weren't from starvation and disease from German infrastructure and supply lines breaking down from allied bombing (the more likely scenario and the DOCUMENTED scenario).

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

and confirms the 6 million and confirms that they weren't starvation

Actually the people running the death camps, shooting the children, etc were not starving to death. This is all the evidence that is needed to show these were (of course) death camps.

so the burden on you to provide a reliable source that went into all the camps

Among things, it was a nazi estimate that they murdered 6 million jews. Plus it's an estimate of the people who disappeared.

[–]Only71Genders 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

All any of us have is faith that the stories we are told are true. But that's all it is. Faith. I know it gives you anxiety to hear someone tell you that your beliefs may not be true, but I have some questions for you. Do you believe that literally every belief you hold about history is completely accurate? Do you think that somewhere along the way, people lied and altered history? Do you realize that every country on Earth teaches different versions of history to their children? Some are drastically different too.

[–]Buri 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There are thousands of infantry soldiers who saw the camps during liberation and clean up. That’s evidence not faith.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Did I say that camps didn't exist? And did you personally talk to all of those soldiers? Or did someone tell you that it's what they saw? And if they did see them, does that prove an intentional genocide (as opposed to uncontrollable starvation or disease where bodies needed to be removed) or a figure of six million? What if I told you that seven million Jews were intentionally murdered? Would you argue? Would you accept the labor of "Holocaust denier" if you argued the figure of seven million? What about ten million? Twenty? Fifty?

[–]happysmash27 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are pretty sure it happened, but there is still no way to completely prove anything other than "I think therefore I am".

[–]pointyball 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look at the European census data from 1939 and then for 1948. Draw your own conclusion.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

yes, we do. The holocaust is a lie

[–]Theo_Fridall 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, and it wasn't what the narrative states.

[–]vaganger 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or rather we have a good idea of what the jew controlled media tells us about it.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

No one can confirm anything major about history was a factual event.

Incorrect. eg:

  1. There's lots of video/photo evidence of the concentration camps, mass graves, etc.
  2. The population of jewish people (and other people disliked by the nazis) massively dropped by many millions. In fact the estimate of 6 million jewish people being killed was in big part based on how many people disappeared.

Please do not act like these events were just a wild guess. People might not know if the germans killed 5.5m jews or 6.5m jews, but this is a well recorded factual event with a lot of evidence showing what happened.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

Those images don't "prove" that there was systemic extermination. They prove that a "certain" amount of inmates were starving and possibly suffering from disease. Funny thing about images, without context, any narration can be inserted.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

They prove that a "certain" amount of inmates were starving and possibly suffering from disease.

There's many photos of small children in concentration camps, & even if they were starved to death that is still mass murder.

And similarly lots of children where in those giant piles of bodies found after ww2. Your holocaust denial is absolutely cruel and irrational.

[–]newguy 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You realize there is a difference between questioning the numbers, and questioning if it happened at all. I believe it happened, I'm just not sure about the numbers they claim.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If you see:

  • about 6 million jewish people disappeared (whole families and a lot children),

  • and you see the endless photos of little kids in these prisons and piles of bodies,

  • and you see the endless photos of the death camps ,

  • and you see the huge piles of bodies,

And you're like "I wonder if they're a tiny few percentage off" that would be questioning the numbers.

If you're greatly questioning it (suggesting that 6m is greatly too high) thenyou are denying the holocaust. You're not fooling anyone.

[–]Zahn 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Virtue signaling at its finest. Photos of dead people show dead people. It does not de facto validate your conspiracy theory of an intentional mass extermination event.

Don't see things as you want to see them, or as others want you to see them, instead see things as they truly are.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

. Photos of dead people show dead people. It does not de facto validate your conspiracy theory of an intentional mass extermination event.

These aren't just bodies, these are mass killings- these are murdered people.

These people and chlidren were often shot, thrown in gas chambers, and worked/starved to death by "guards" who were not starving themselves.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Hmmm, seems like you have a suspiciously personal invested interest in this topic. I'm not saying "war crimes" didn't happen, yet your narrative is text book as well as is your "debate" style. You're not progressing the discussion ,but instead repeating yourself. You're not fooling anyone with experience in this subject matter.

[–]newguy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you're greatly questioning it (suggesting that 6m is greatly too high) thenyou are denying the holocaust

If I say 5 million died instead of 6 million, that's not "denying the holocaust" because I clearly still think it happened, I just don't agree on the exact numbers.

What if I say I think 5.9 million died? Am I a holocaust denier? Your logic doesn't make sense

Also, many more types of people than just jews died, so I'm not sure why you're only focused on them. I think if you count everyone, didn't 10 million or so get killed in the camps? So by you saying 6 million, that makes you 4 million short!

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If I say 3 million died instead of 6 million, that's not "denying the holocaust"

That's denying half the holocaust.

I'm not going to tell you what the percentage is, for who counts as a "holocaust denier", but it is totally rational to understand that at some point a person making very minimal estimates of an event is essentially denying it and should be described that way.

Also, many more types of people than just jews died, so I'm not sure why you're only focused on them.

I'm not, I spoke of the others who were killed. I am giving an example with the most common known number.

[–]newguy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Okay, fair enough. But how do you explain this assortment of real newspaper articles touting the "6 million jews killed" number, far before WW2 even happened? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2yMGvnPoi2M/UAikHaJTxrI/AAAAAAAACdw/p7kBa2KmpHw/s640/holocaust_six_million_exterminated_jews_new_york_times_juda_60000000.jpg

The 6M number is part of some sects of Jewish prophecy, so maybe they suffered 3M terrible losses and then exaggerated it a bit to fulfill prophecy so they could get Israel and fulfill prophecy

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Someone posted that earlier. Here is my reply.

[–]Zahn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Put on your tin foil hat, there's no big conspiracy by the "powerful holocaust questioning" lobby to bring up concerns just so that they can get thrown in jail for deviating from the official narrative.

What if those children starved as a result of Allied bombing of food and medicine supply lines? Thusly, the U.S. in effect, killed them?

Also, being labeled a "denier" is obviously just slander. I question everything. All you must do is open your mind. More substance, less weaponized slurs.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

What if those children starved as a result of Allied bombing of food and medicine supply lines? Thusly, the U.S. in effect, killed them?

Little kids were in a prison to execute them and their families.

Please don't try to blame the people trying to defeat the Nazis based on the "argument" that theoretically a US bomb could have hurt the jews/etc.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

You should bring up human lamp shades, human soap, roller coaster of death, anal gas pumps ,and the masturbation death machines at this point to really solidify your stance.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even if some of the allegations (of the nazi's actions) were not proven that is not evidence that that the event in general lacks evidence.

Be honest: the nazis, eg in their writings & statements after the war, defended their genocidal ideology. You can not deny the holocaust.

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also, yet another strange comment from you. Really putting yourself out there with these absolutist statements. Many of these common war crimes you cite have interesting parallels to the current Jewish treatment of modern day Palestinians and their children. Seems when the shoe is on the other foot, then it's ok?

[–]WebcomicAddiction 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Many of these common war crimes you cite

Arent you the one who cites war crimes here?

[–]ouijazaza 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

[–]Zahn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It's your "theoretical" they were wanting to kill children. I have not found anything that would substantiate this theory of yours. That's just mental gymnastics on your part. However the Allies were quite open about their bombing raids incapacitating German supply lines causing widespread starvation and suffering. Hence, the alternate theory they died as a result of Allied destruction of food and medical supply lines is significantly more plausible than you jumping to predetermined conclusions.

[–]Anticapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's your "theoretical" they were wanting to kill children.

There's nothing theoretical- they shot children & spoke of it openly after the holocaust was revealed. And not only did they shoot children with guns, but they portrayed themselves as good moral people for doing it.

Nazi police officer:

  • "I made the effort to only shoot children. It so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand. My neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her. Because I reasoned with myself that after all, without it's mother the child could not live any longer. It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release children unable to live without their mother."

https://youtu.be/O8UzmLsXGRU?t=1165

And they put children in death camps. You can not rationally shift the blame like this.

[–]Zahn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This anecdotal example does not conclusively prove an intentional mass extermination event. You're leading with your emotions and not your mind. It's okay to feel what you do, but you must push through the involuntary reactionism regardless of how uncomfortable it becomes for you.

[–]Anticapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This anecdotal example does not conclusively prove an intentional mass extermination event.

The other things I posted are clear evidence of the holocaust.

While that (a Nazi police offer admitting to killing masses of children via shooting them) is to show this was not simply some accident, or some accidental lack of food. They were shooting children.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You should stop now unless you want your worldview rocked. It's depressing as fuck. And no, Hitler was not a good guy and he did many things wrong.

[–]WebcomicAddiction 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How would he have his worldview rocked?

[–]Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

From this blog:

Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, said:

These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures” (Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15)

Nobody denies the persecution of Jews but the Holocaust story is indeed exaggerated. Reality tells us what is true, science backs this reality, but belief is without proof and belief in a miracle that has been proven fraudulent is a hard pill to swallow. The holocaust by definition is sacrifice through fire. So, did 6 million Jews die via sacrifice through fire?

Some other classic quotes:

<Truth is no defence”

As in, one should never question a known known, even if it might not be true. The sinisterness and ferocity of the regime is more than enough evidence for truth to be inverted.

And:

It is not necessary to ask how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was possible technically since it took place. That is the necessary point of departure for any historical inquiry on this subject. It is our function simply to recall that truth: There as not, there cannot be, any debate about the existence of the gas chambers.” ~ Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 historians.

Will comment [on] one popular Holocaust denial claim, which I find incorrect:

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

I found a report with very similar numbers. It was used in East Germany:

http://www.renegadetribune.com/international-red-cross-report-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/

There is an image of it.   The IRC report of 1947 must have been based on similar information.


1) Look up Majdanek, it says 6,920 deaths. Then look up the following death book from the Majdanek museum:

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=32153

The text says about 7,000 deaths. So these figures match, but the death book is deaths in the time June 8 to September 28, 1942.

Clearly, the report is based on partial data from Majdanek, only the death books from June 8 to September 28, 1942. Majdanek was captured almost intact, so there are all archives. They have been carefully studied. The official death toll is 78,000 of whom 59,000 are Jews.


2) Look up Auschwitz, the report says 52,589. Then you wonder where did the report get this number as Soviets hid the archives of Auschwitz.

The archives were found much later. They have partial death books, which contain 68,864 names. Thus, the authors of the report did not have these death books. Their number, though given as precise, is incorrect.


3) Then notice that the report does not have figures for camps that were not any more in existence when Allied conquered Germany. There are missing Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belcez. There is also missing Theresienstadt. There are missing ghettos of Warsaw and Lodz, as are all work camps in Poland. There is missing the whole area of the Soviet union of 1941.


4) Look up the figure of Mauthausen. The report gives it as 77,727. You wonder why Mauthausen was so much worse than the other camps. This is because the report figure matches the presently given death toll only for the camp of Mauthausen. The normal figure given for that camp is 80,000.


For all these reasons, the IRC report is unreliable. But the essential issue is that it does not have all Jewish deaths. It is only National Socialist concentration camps, all but 2 in Germany, omitting 4 important concentration camps in Poland, two large ghettos and a large number of small work camps.

Compare the figures in the East German report to the following figures from each concentration camp web pages. Notice, none of these are death camps, none had alleged gas chambers:

  • Bergen-Belsen 0.05 million,

  • Buchenwaldt 0.05,

  • Ravensbruk some 0.09,

  • Mauthausen maybe 0.08 (mostly non-Jews),

  • Flossenberg 0.03,

  • Dachau 0.027 its subcamp 0.01.

The rest, that is Gross-Rosen, Stutthof, Sachenhausen, Neuengammen, Natzweiler, Mittelbau, etc. together make maybe 0.05.

These all sum to 0.39 million.


From the East German report we can deduce that these death tolls, that are given in the web sites of concentration camps in Germany, are likely to be correct. That is, the figures in the East German report and the IRC report were obtained from death books that remained in the camps when the Allied arrived, as not all books remained (military personnel has to burn documents so that the enemy does not get them), the death tolls are only partial. But the figure for Mauthausen is 77,0000.

Apparently in this camp all death books were left behind. Camps in Germany were similar, so their death ratios should be similar. Scaling the number of prisoners in Mauthausen to the size of the other camps in Germany we can get good estimates to the death toll in the other camps.

It seems to lead to figures that are close to the official numbers. Thus, the death tolls in camps in Germany are as in the official figures. Of Poland, there were the following concentration camps:

Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec.

The East German report is not much use as it reports only Majdanek (from partial death books) and Auschwitz (from an unknown, but incorrect source). But there is good information from Majdanek, as most of the camp archives were obtained (but only partial death books). From the partial death books for a period of less than 4 months (7000) we can verify that Kola’s estimate 78,000, of whom 59,000 Jews, is very probable. The other camps in Poland are likely to have similar death ratios.

Thus, estimating death tolls in concentration camps is not in any way impossible. It does not give 6 million. For Nazi concentration camps alone the Jewish death toll is roughly 600,000, not half of 277,000.

But adding other deaths the total gets considerably higher.

You must add deaths in ghettos and work camps in Poland (170,000) and in war 1939+ghetto uprising and POW camps (some 50,000), shootings in Yugoslavia (58,000), shootings by Einsatzgruppen and SS divisions (some 100,000), deaths in work camps and ghettos in Ukraine, and an estimate how many died in ghettos and camps in Ukraine in German hands. Adding about 850,000 deaths in Soviet hands and 160,000 in Romania raise the total to 2-2.5 million. The majority of these deaths are not the result of an alleged extermination program. [And as revisionists have stated time and time again, they do not deny the executions of Jews and the rounding up of Jews to be used for slave labor or imprisoned in concentration camps. They do not advocate or try to whitewash the crimes of the National Socialists, whether it be their coordinated euthanasia program of disabled people, or the imprisonment of homosexuals, communists, Jews, and work shy persons. Revisionists are, however, skeptical about the final solution narrative, the six million figure and the use of gas chambers.]


AJY statistics is based on Soviet figures and these figures are not reliable. A very good argument can be made that the Soviet figure was 1 million smaller in 1939 and about 1 million higher in 1948 than what the Soviets told. Doing these corrections you get 2.5 million as the Jewish death toll. I do not see any reason why anybody should be put to jail for proposing these corrections to the Soviet figures. We exactly know that Soviet figures were simply Soviet guesses, not based on valid census data.


I personally do not have any problem in believing in the 6 million figure in case the state threatens with a prison sentence.

It is simply a demand to believe in a miracle: by arithmetics the 6 million figure is not possible, but as a miracle of God could have more Jews die than there were, why not?

Earlier in the Roman Empire you had to believe that Caesar was a god, and if you refused to believe it, you were killed. Then you were killed if you did not believe in some Church dogma. Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

But I guess today in Europe one is allowed to both believe in a religious truth and to believe in a scientific truth at the same time, even if they are in contradiction. I mean, we can believe that God created Adam and at the same time believe in humans coming from Africa. A contradiction, but you are allowed to believe in a contradiction.

[–]Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By the way the pictures you see of emaciated people in concentration campa are at the very end of thr war when Germany had collapse, and raillines were bombed. No food or medical supplies were coming in. Germans were dying and emigrating to the west, their were mass expulsions. Many concentrations camps in fact were bombed by the allies. Germany also had a food blockade on her whoch made conditions much worse. The 6 million figure is a lie based on arithmetics. As for gass chambers I can detail that in more detail but the 4.5 million figure of gassings is absurdly impossible.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The most official report as to the number of people that died in those camps was made by the Red Cross. The 1947 Red Cross report showed the figure of 271, 301 people died in all camps during the entire course of the war and of those that died 40% were Jews.”

Again, the Red Cross said that's bullshit. The Red Cross (the ICRC) denies that they ever made those statistics:

  • "In the 1978 official bulletin, entitled "False Propaganda", the ICRC denounced Holocaust denial and confirmed that the agency "Never published—or even compiled—statistics of this kind which are being falsely attributed to it" and stated that its mission was "to help war victims, not to count them",[84][85][86] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[84][86] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[84][86] and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Now there is a religious dogma that 6 million died, so you better believe it.

Actually that number came from the Nazis themselves.

  • "In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.” "

https://www.academia.edu/19580380/Capstone_1

I've read quite a bit of your post (and scrolled over the rest) and noticed nothing but baseless assertions and irrational assumptions.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I literally debunked the red cross myth in my post and agree with tour assertion. So, you obviously are not reading my posts and it looks like nobody elses. 4.5 million did not die in concentration camps. The numbers have been lowered millions over the years but the 6 million figure has stayed the same.

How about you debunk the assumptions? 600,000 - 1,000,000 died in Nazi concentration camps, not 6 million, not 4.5 million. Not 2 million. It doesn't matter what Nazis under a kangaroo, torture trial blurted out.

All you are doing is posting the official consenus not backed up by physical proof.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I said I read part of your post (a lot of it) and scrolled over the rest, seeing no rational arguments for holocaust denial/minimalism. I looked for rational arguments for your beliefs, and I found none. Nothing.

Your attempt to say "only 600,000 were killed" is an attempt for you to act like you're not just another sadist holocaust denier, but people are not fooled by this.

[–]Only71Genders 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

  1. Vidoes and photos have been altered since the beginning of vidoes and photos. And videos and photos can be staged. Easily. Or just given a fake description that retards will blindly believe. Meanwhile do any of them show the totality of any event? The answer is no, never.

  2. There are contradicting accounts of population figures, and figures can be intentionally manipulated at any time. And also don't prove anything, especially if a group has gone into hiding, refuses to accurately answer a census, or is no longer in a region conducting that accurate of a census.

So all you have is personal faith that everyone had been honest and no one ever altered anything for any personal gain. This is a broad brush statement. Actually, all of these are. Not specifically talking about Jews or genocide. So you, and everyone else, can't factually prove anything. Saying otherwise is a lie. Proof to an arbitrary standard is the best anyone can hope for. You can lie and act like you know something is absolutely certain, but no one does. They just believe what they want to believe (typically whatever their programming has told them to believe) and get angry and defensive at anyone who questions it. Basically like any religious person.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Vidoes and photos have been altered since the beginning of vidoes and photos.

Well when the photos & "vidoes" of all the nations who survived attacks by the Nazi genocides all show a train system for moving huge amounts of people to genocidal death camps, I think that's pretty good evidence personally.

Maybe you're in denial of the obvious?

I'm all for questioning power & the story they tell, but sometimes you can take conspiracy too far and become totally cruel & irrational.

[–]Only71Genders 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Do they really show that? I mean, can you prove that is what they are showing? You are assuming that is what they are showing. Because that is what you want to believe. And that is what you were told. How does a train system automatically verify a genocide? All it verifies is that a train system existed somewhere at some point in time.

Maybe you're in denial of the obvious?

Are you being ironic or are just projecting? YOU are the one denying reality. I am pointing out basic facts of existence and you aren't even able to address them. You are clinging on to a discussion about the Holocaust that is barely even relevant.

I'm all for questioning power & the story they tell, but sometimes you can take conspiracy too far and become totally cruel & irrational.

You are the only one that desperately wants a horrific genocide to have taken place. I would be thrilled if it never happened. What type of person WANTS the holocaust to have happened?? I'm just pointing out that we have no clue if it did or didn't happen as we have been told it did. I even pointed out that it could have been more than six million Jews that were killed. You glossed right over that concept, and I think you are arguing from a very dishonest position at this point. Obviously I should have done a better job at not making this feel like a personal attack, and I apologise for doing so. Honest discussion end when people are offended.

[–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He's not offended, he's just playing you.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He's doing a poor job at it then. If his best argument is to not have one, and then give me a platform to prove he doesn't have one, then his strategy sucks balls. But you're probably right. There is no way that he can be this oblivious. It looks intentional. Although cognitive dissonance is a powerful force sometimes.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Your belief is that these concentration camp photos are all some kind of jewish conspiracy theory.

You're in denial of a wide variety of photo/video evidence from multiple sides which almost entirely matches- showing the same atrocities, eg same trains (which had a bunch of jewish/etc people on them when people were freed,) and the same mass killing camps and the same mass graves.

And this photo/video evidence (from multiple sides) also matches the testimony of the survivors of the death camps, and also matches the nazi's post-war writings & stories defending their genocide.

In other words, your position is 100% not rational.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're a pretty funny jewish kid. I appreciate your chutzpah, but you're out of your league and need to work on your rhetoric game more. Will check back when you have had some more practice.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

[talking about someone personally]

That's also not a rational argument that anything I said was wrong.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Another fatal flaw is that you don't innately know when to stop. Sociopathic behaviour is ingrained in you and are in love with hearing yourself talk. Grossly overestimating your intellect, you seek to hide your deficiencies behind the complexities of sophistry to sway the weak minded and to further delude yourself with your perceived intellectual grandiosity when you have succeeded in fooling the unwary.

The truth never fears questioning, nor would you have to resort to rhetorical fallacies if your debate premise was founded in truth to begin with.

I can only implore that you pursue more meaningful causes to advance peace and understanding. But, just not sure those kind of pursuits are in your nature. Time will tell...Farewell, do well.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[personal attacks]

Thank you for surrendering the debate.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Your belief is that these concentration camp photos are all some kind of jewish conspiracy theory

That was MY belief?? You can't help but lie, can you? Super weird.

Again, videos and photos don't prove anything as factual. At all. I hope you aren't on a jury for an innocent man... And I've explained this repeatedly, but you aren't honest enough to reply to anything that I have said. You just keep changing the subject and going on about the Holocaust claims. Which you can't prove. And you are pissed that you can't prove it. Thanks to this conversation, I now believe in the Holocaust a little less than I did before. Still pretty in the middle though. But you and I will never know what really happened. You will have to go to the grave knowing that all you can do is lie and say you know it all to be a fact. You never will though. Good luck!

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It's not just photos, it's photos matching from different sources (eg different nations) which also match survivor testimony and match the confessions/writings of the nazis.

Please be honest and rational.

[–]Only71Genders 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao telling me to be honest just makes you a troll at this point. Can you specify what I said that was dishonest? You couldn't even back up a single one of your lies. Repeating that you think your evidence is definitely proof that something is a fact, doesn't make it a fact. It just makes you a liar. Or con artist. Or both...

[–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's been very entertaining watching your generic low Iq rhetoric. You made me laugh quite a bit when you try to play the shaming card, thinking that actually works on rational whites.

[–]Anticapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's been very entertaining watching your generic low Iq rhetoric. You made me laugh quite a bit when you try to play the shaming card, thinking that actually works on rational whites.

/u/Zahn, your post is just a personal attack.

It's not a rational evidence-based argument that anything I said was wrong. (Just like all your other posts here.)

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 6))

On June 26, 1942, the Chief of the Security Police and SD wrote in a report in German, translated into English:

The measures taken by the Security Police and the SD also have to create fundamental changes in White Russia in the field of the Jewish question. In order to bring the Jews under effective control, independent of measures to be taken later, Jewish Elders' Councils were appointed, who are responsible to the Security Police and the SD for the attitude of their racial comrades. In addition, the registration of Jews and their affiliation in ghettos began. Finally, the Jews were marked by a yellow badge to be worn on the chest and back in the manner of the Jewish star imported into the Reich territory. In order to evaluate the work potential of the Jews, they are generally used for closed work and for cleanup work.

With these measures, the foundations for the later intended final solution of the European Jewish question were also created for the territory of Byelorussia.**

Source: »Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten Nr. 9«, Berlin, den 26. Juni 1942. RGVA, 500-1-755, S. 190. "Reports from the Occupied Eastern Territories No. 9", Berlin, June 26, 1942. RGVA, 500-1-755, p. 190.


In April 1943, Richard Korherr, Inspector for Statistics at the office of the Reichsführer SS, wrote the Korherr Report, which had the title "The Final Solution to the European Jewish Question" and makes no mention at all of gassing or extermination. In fact, Korherr himself in a letter to Der Spiegel (see in above link) denied that "Special treatment" meant extermination, and claimed that Jews were not being exterminated but "settled in the District of Lublin."

These next points are from Germar Rudolf's "Lectures on the Holocaust":

  • On Oct. 17, 1941, Martin Luther, the head of the Germany department in the Foreign Office, composed a document which discusses "comprehensive measures relating to a Final Solution of the Jewish Question after the end of the War." (Politisches Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes (Berlin), Politische Abteilung III 245, ref. Po 36, vol. I.)

  • September 1942: In the so-called "Green Map" for the "Administration of the Economy in the Occupied Eastern Regions," it is stated that "After the War, the Jewish question will be solved overall throughout Europe," which is why until then everything would merely be "partial measures." It admonished that "thuggish measures" against Jews would be "unworthy of Germans and must be avoided by all means." ("Richtlinien für die Führung der Wirtschaft in den besetzten Ostgebieten" (Grüne Mappe), Berlin, September 1942. EC-347. IMT, vol. XXXVI, p. 348.)

  • On 5 September 1942, Horst Ahnert of the Paris security police wrote that in conjunction with the "final solution to the Jewish question" that the "deportation of Jews for purpose of labor" was about to begin.

(Centre de Documentation Juive Contemporaine, vol. XXVI-61.)


Some interesting news articles mentioning the "Final Solution"

https://archive.is/6X2W0/df268b6c97581b6ae97bbc9c6ef4731bea0fc4ac.jpg

Zionist newspaper Die jüdische Wanderung (The Jewish Wandering), "Auswanderung als Endlösung" (Emigration as Final Solution), by Zionist leader Fabius Schach, Berlin, February 18, 1939:

https://archive.is/3YxIy/3221198beff4ac0e3d8db8e1c940ebf1a3f25e52.jpg

The San Bernardino Daily Sun - August 1940:

https://archive.is/Bdeg7/00294d201d9a6952018dfee45bfa91f29adfe741.jpg

https://archive.is/Bdeg7/00294d201d9a6952018dfee45bfa91f29adfe741.jpg

https://archive.is/QhsLU/4d604a0113cbd0d35a83e2130aa7cc75d622e721.jpg


There are many more of these articles and newspaper photographs illustrating the final solution meaning. I will not post them all, because they all get censored. Anyway, I thought this would be an interesting post.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 5))

On 12 July 1940, upon returning from Berlin, where he had been received by Hitler, Hans Frank, governor of Poland, made a speech in which he declared:

From the viewpoint of general policy, I would like to add that it was decided to deport all the Jewish communities of Germany, of the General Government [Poland], and of the Protectorate [Bohemia-Moravia] to an African or an American colony as soon as possible after having made peace: Madagascar, which France would have to abandon to that end, has been suggested

SOURCE: PS-2233, IMT, VoL XXIX. H. Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs dans les pays de l'Est présentée d'Nuremberg (The Persecution of the Jews in the Eastern Countries Presented at Nuremberg), Paris, 1949, p. 202.


In a note of 14 November 1942 titled "Financing the measures related to the solution of the Jewish problem" Ministerial Counselor Maedel confirmed:

It is some time ago that the Reichsmarschall charged the Reichsführer-SS and chief of the German police with preparing measures appropriate to assuring the final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe. The Reichsführer-SS has charged the Chief of the Security Police and the SD with the execution of that task. The latter has, first of an, expedited, by special measures, the legal emigration of the Jews to overseas countries. When the war made overseas emigration impossible he made preparations for the progressive clearance of the Reich territory of its Jews by their evacuation to the east.

SOURCE: document NG-4583; Finanzierung der Massnahmen zur Lösung der Judenfrage: Memorandum des Reichsfinanzministeriums, Abt. I, Gruppe: Haushalt- und Kassenwesen.


A "notice" of 9 October 1942 captioned, "Preparatory Measures for the Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe-Rumors About the Position of the Jews in the East" (PS-3244) summarizes the stages and explains clearly the meaning of "final solution":

For approx. 2000 years, a so-far unsuccessful battle has been waged against Judaism. Only since 1933 have we started to find ways and means in order to enable a complete separation of Judaism from the German masses.

The work toward a solution which has previously been accomplished can in the main be divided as follows:

The repulsion of Jews from the individual spheres of living of the German people. The laws issued by the lawmakers are hereby to be the basis, which guarantees that future generations will also be protected from a possible new overflooding by the enemy.

The attempt to completely drive out the enemy from the area of the Reich. In view of the only very limited living space [Lebensraum] at the disposal of the German people it was hoped this problem could be solved in the main by speeding up the Jewish emigration.

Since the outbreak of war in 1939 these possibilities of emigration decreased to an ever greater extent. On the other hand, in addition to the living space [Lebensraum] of the German people, their economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] grew steadily, so that in view of the large numbers of Jews residing in these territories a complete repulsion of the Jews by emigration is no longer possible.

Since even our next generation will not be so close to this problem and will no longer see it clearly enough on the basis of past experiences and since this matter which has now started rolling demands clearing up, the whole problem must still be solved by the present generation.

A complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] is therefore an urgent need in the fight for the security of existence of the German people.

Starting with the territory of the Reich and proceeding to the remaining European countries included in the final solution, the Jews are currently being deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East.


'there is no document signed by Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich which speaks of exterminating the jews... the word 'extermination' does not appear in the letter from Goring to Heydrich concerning the final solution to the jewish question

This statement was made by Doctor Kubovy, of the Documentation Center in Tel Aviv 1960 Quote taken from Le veritable proces Eichmann - Paul Rassinier

The 'final solution' was often used in conjunction with the word 'territorial' but it would appear the word 'territorial' is dropped very often.

Heydrich wrote to Ribbentrop on June 24 1940 raising the issue of a 'territorial final solution' - Gerald Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution 1984 pp44

Until its abandonment, the 'Madagascar Plan' was sometimes referred to by the German leaders as the 'final solution' to the 'Jewish question.'

Poliakov, Le proces de Jerusalem (The Jerusalem Trial)

But the word Endlosung gets interesting here...

Goring's protest of the English translation of the German word 'Gesamtlosung' (complete solution) as 'final solution' (Endlosung, led Justice Robert Jackson to acknowledge the false translation and restore the true meaning.

IMT, TMWC vol. 9 pp.519-520

Quite clearly in much of the use of the phrase 'final solution' they were talking of a territorial solution to the jewish problem. The problem being that they, the jews, would not leave steadily on their own and needed to be re-located. The war in Russia, leading to more available territory for this final solution being possible.


The June 24 letter Heydrich wrote to Ribbentrop:

Translation: C01 Heydrich letter to Ribbentrop regarding the "Territorial Final Solution" Letter by the Chief of the Reich Police and SD (IV D 4 –1574/40), signed Heydrich, to the Reich Foreign Minister, SS Major General Joachim von Ribbentrop, dated 24.6.1940

Dear Party Comrade von Ribbentrop!

In his capacity as Commissioner for the Four Year Plan, the Field Marshall General commissioned myself in January 1939 with implementing Jewish emigration from the whole Reich territory. Despite difficulties, in the following period it proved possible to successfully continue with Jewish emigration, even during the war. Since my office took responsibility for this task on 1 January 1939, over 200,000 Jews have emigrated from the Reich territory until now. The overall problem–there are already around 3¼ million Jews in the territories now standing today under German sovereignty – can no longer be solved through emigration however. A territorial final solution is therefore necessary. May I request that I be allowed to participate in any forthcoming discussions concerned with the final solution of the Jewish question should any be planned.

Heil Hitler!

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 4))

  1. The Croat Government is likewise fundamentally agreeable to the removal of the Jews from Croatia. It especially considers the deportation of the four to five thousand Jews from the Italian occupied Second zone (centered around Dubrovnik and Mostar) to be important, as they represent a political burden and their elimination would serve the general pacification. The removal can of course take place only with German aid, as difficulties are to be expected from the Italian side. There have been practical examples of resistance to the Croat measures by Italian officials on behalf of well-to-do Jews. Furthermore, the Italian Chief of Staff in Mostar has said that he cannot approve the removal since all the people living in Mostar have been assured of the same treatment.

Since meanwhile according to a telephone communication from Zagreb, the Croat Government has given its written approval of the proposed measure, Minister Kasche thinks it right to begin with the removal, and in fact to begin for the whole country. One could therefore take the risk of having difficulties develop in the course of the action, so far as concerns the zone occupied by Italians.

A report for the Reich Foreign Minister to this effect (D III 562 Secret) has been held up by State Secretary von Weizsäcker since he considered an inquiry should first be made at the Embassy in Rome. The answer has not been received.

The problem of the Italian Jews has come up in the same way in connection with the evacuation of the Jews in France.

Ambassador Abetz points out in connection with the deportation in preparation from the Occupied French Territory that there was an urgent political interest to take the foreign Jews first in the evacuation measures. Since these Jews were regarded as foreign bodies, they were already especially hated and passing them over and giving them thereby a quasi privileging would cause bad feeling, the more so since among them were to be found responsible instigators of Jewish terror and sabotage acts. It was regrettable that the Axis appeared exactly in this point to pursue no uniform policy.

If the evacuation of the foreign Jews were not immediately possible, the Italian Government should be for the time being asked to repatriate their Jews from France.

On the Italian side, economic interests appear to play a decisive role. The safeguarding of these interests, however, is entirely possible, so that on this point there needs to be no obstacle to the planned solution.

On this question of the Italian Jews in France a conference record of July 24, re D III 562 Secret, has been submitted to the Reich Foreign Minister.

  1. On the occasion of a reception by the Reich Foreign Minister on November 26, 1941, the Bulgarian Foreign Minister Popoff touched on the problem of according like treatment to the Jews of European nationalities and pointed out the difficulties that the Bulgarians had in the application of their Jewish laws to Jews of foreign nationality.

The Reich Foreign Minister answered that he thought this question brought up by Mr. Popoff not uninteresting. Even now he could say one thing to him, that at the end of this war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Führer and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied and individual measures would not help very much. Furthermore, one should not attribute too much worth to the protests on behalf of the Jews of foreign nationality. At any rate, we would not let ourselves be taken in any further by such protests from the American side. He - the Reich Foreign Minister - would have the problem described by Mr. Popoff investigated by the Foreign Office.

The Reich Foreign Minister commissioned me to undertake the investigation promised (compare D III 660g) [document NG-4669].

I should like to make reference to my basic conference memorandum of December 4, 1941, re D III 660 Secret, which I am dispatching, together with the proper files. This conference memorandum was held up by the State Secretary, because he considered a further examination by the Legal Division first necessary. In their opinion the German-Bulgarian trade and shipping pact was not in agreement with the German-Bulgarian arrangements proposed by me. I therefore notified the German Legation in Sofia, re D III 497 Secret, under the date of June 19, in reference to the suggestion of the Bulgarian Foreign Minister Popoff at his reception to contact the Bulgarian Government and find out whether it was prepared to come to an agreement in the Jewish problem that there should be no rights from the trade and shipping pact given effect in favor of the Jews in the promise of reciprocality.

If the question is put from the Bulgarian side as to whether Germany is ready to deport Jews from Bulgaria to the East, the question should be answered in the affirmative, but in respect to the time of the departing should be answered evasively. This decree was cosigned by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary, the Director of the Political Division, the Director of the Division for Economic Policy, Section IV of the Political Division, Section IV of the Division for Economic Policy, and also by Ribbentrop. The Legation exchanged notes with the Bulgarian Government and reported that the Bulgarian Government is fundamentally prepared in the problem of the evacuation to sign an agreement with us. Thereby the basis is given to include the Bulgarian Jews in the Jewish measures. (D III 559 Secret and 569 Secret).

  1. The Hungarian Government has not yet been approached with respect to the Jewish removal, because the status of the Hungarian legislation up to the present does not promise a sufficient success.

  2. In accordance with the agreement of the Romanian Government mentioned under '8' the evacuation of the Romanian Jews from Germany and the occupied territories was begun, whereupon various Romanian consulates and the Romanian Minister in Berlin, who had no instructions from their Government, intervened. Ambassador von Killinger was therefore asked for clarification. The Legation seems to have made use of the Jewish advisor assigned to it, Richter, for this purpose. He is a person to whom the Romanian Government confirmed its earlier agreement to the inclusion of the Romanian Jews in the German measures and to whom the Deputy Ministry President Mihai Antonescu informed of the request of the Marshall that the German agencies should also carry out the removal from Romania itself and should be then immediately with the transport of the Jews from the areas Arad, Timisoara and Turda.

For details may I refer to my conference memorandum of August 17 as D III 649.

  1. At the request of the governments concerned, the legations in Bratislava, Zagreb and Bucharest have been assigned advisors for Jewish affairs. They have been made available at the request of the Foreign Office by the RSHA. Their assignment is for a limited time. It ends as soon as the Jewish problem in the country concerned can be regarded as solved in the German sense. Originally it was regarded as solved as soon as the country concerned has issued Jewish laws similar to the German ones.

Accordingly Richter was recalled from Romania last year by the RSHA.

At the urgent request of the legation in Bucharest, Richter was again assigned to the legation despite the objection of the RSHA. This was done with the express intention of having him remain there until the actual final solution in Romania (D III 1703 Secret and 1893 Secret).

Since all negotiations with the Romanian Government went through the Foreign Office, the report of SS First Lieutenant Richter submitted by the Reichsführer-SS should be considered only as an internal work report to the RSHA. The unusual procedure of having the confirmation of a final conference in the handwriting of the Deputy Minister President was sharply objected to immediately through the directive of the 17th of this month; the official handling of the affair must be carried out immediately. The files have been submitted there already under D III 659 Secret.

The intended deportations are a further step forward on the way of the total solution and are in respect to other countries (Hungary) very important. The deportation to the Government General is a temporary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied Eastern Territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given.

I therefore request approval for the continuation of the negotiations and measures under these terms and according to the arrangement made.

Signed: LUTHER


In regards to:

On February 10, 1942, Foreign Office official Franz Rademacher sent to another Third Reich official a memo

Here is the German text of the Feb 10, 1942 memo sent to Minister Harald Bielfeld by Franz Rademacher, from document NG-5770 (ADAP, Serie E, Bd. I, Nr.227):

Im August 1940 übergab ich Ihnen für Ihre Akten den von meinem Referat entworfenen Plan zur Endlösung der Judenfrage, wozu die Insel Madagaskar von Frankreich im Friedensvertrag gefordert, die praktische Durchführung der Aufgabe aber dem Reichssicherheitshauptamt übertragen werden sollte.... Der Krieg gegen die Sowjetunion hat inzwischen die Möglichkeit gegeben, andere Territorien für die Endlösung zur Verfügung zu stellen. Demgemäß hat der Führer entschieden, daß die Juden nicht nach Madagaskar, sondern nach dem Osten abgeschoben werden sollen. Madagaskar braucht mithin nicht mehr für die Endlösung vorgesehen zu werden.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


((Part 3))

The Madagascar plan was enthusiastically accepted by the RSHA, which in the opinion of the Foreign Office is the agency which alone is in the position technically and by experience to carry out a Jewish evacuation on a large scale and to guarantee the supervision of the people evacuated, the competent agency of the RSHA thereupon worked out a plan going into detail for the evacuation of the Jews to Madagascar and for their settlement there. This plan was approved by the Reichsführer-SS. SS Lieutenant General Heydrich submitted this plan directly to the Reich Foreign Minister in August 1940 (compare D III 2171). The Madagascar plan in fact had been outdated as the result of the political development.

The fact that the Führer intends to evacuate all Jews from Europe was communicated to me as early as August 1940 by Ambassador Abetz after an interview with the Führer (compare D III 2298).

Hence, the basic instruction of the Reich Foreign Minister, to promote the evacuation of the Jews in closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsführer-SS, is still in force and will therefore be observed by D III.

  1. The administration of the occupied territories brought with it the problem of the treatment of Jews living in these territories. First, the military commander in France saw himself compelled as the first one to issue on September 27, 1940, a decree on the treatment of the Jews in occupied France. The decree was issued with the agreement of the German Embassy in Paris. The pertinent instruction was issued directly by the Reich Foreign Minister to Ambassador Abetz on the occasion of a verbal report.

After the pattern of the Paris decree, similar decrees have been issued in the Netherlands and Belgium. As these decrees, in the same way as German laws concerning Jews, formally embrace all Jews independent of their citizenship, objections were made by foreign powers, among others protest notes by the Embassy of the United States of America, although the military commander in France through internal regulation had ordered that the Jewish measures should not be applied to the citizens of neutral countries.

The Reich Foreign Minister has decided in the case of the American protests that he does not consider it right to have military regulations issued for making an exception of the American Jews. It would be a mistake to reject objections of friendly states (Spain and Hungary) and on the other hand to show weakness toward the Americans. The Reich Foreign Minister considers it necessary to make these instructions to the field commanders retroactive (compare D III 5449).

In accordance with this direction, the Jewish measures have been given general application.

  1. In his letter of June 24, 1940 - Pol XII 136 - SS Lieutenant General Heydrich informed the Reich Foreign Minister that the whole problem of the approximately three and a quarter million Jews in the areas under German control can no longer be solved by emigration - a territorial final solution would be necessary.

In recognition of this, Reich Marshall Göring on July 31, 1941, commissioned SS Lieutenant General Heydrich to make, in conjunction with the interested German Control agencies, all necessary preparations for a total solution of the Jewish problem in the German sphere of influence in Europe (compare D III 709 secret). On the basis of this instruction, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich arranged a conference of all the interested German agencies for January 20, 1942, at which the State Secretaries were present from the other ministries and I myself from the Foreign Office. In the conference General Heydrich explained that Reich Marshall Göring's assignment to him had been made on the Führer's instruction and that the Führer instead of the emigration had now authorized the evacuation of the Jews to the East as the solution (compare page 5 of the enclosure to D III 29/42 Secret). State Secretary Weizsäcker had been informed on the conference; for the time being the Reich Foreign Minister had not been informed on the conference, because SS Lieutenant General Heydrich agreed to holding a new conference in the near future in which more details of the total solution should be discussed. This conference has never taken place due to Lieutenant General Heydrich's appointment as acting Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and due to his death.

In the conference on January 20, 1942, I demanded that all questions concerned with countries outside Germany must first have the agreement of the Foreign Office, a demand to which SS Lieutenant General Heydrich agreed and also has faithfully complied with, as in fact, the office of the RSHA handling Jewish matters had, from the beginning, carried out all measures in frictionless cooperation with the Foreign Office. The RSHA has in this matter proceeded indeed almost over-cautiously.


  1. On the basis of the Führer's instruction mentioned under '4' (above), the evacuation of the Jews from Germany was begun. It was urged that at the same time these Jews should also be taken who were nationals of the countries which had also undertaken Jewish measures. The RSHA accordingly made an inquiry of the Foreign Office. For reasons of courtesy, inquiry was made by way of the German legations in Bratislava [Slovakia], Zagreb [Croatia], and Bucharest [Romania] to the Governments there as to whether they wanted to recall their Jews from Germany in due time or to agree to their deportation to the ghettos in the East. To the issuance of this instruction, agreement was given before dispatch by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary in Charge of the Political Division, the Director of the Division for Economic Policy and the Director of the Legal Division (compare D III 336 Secret).

The German Legation in Bucharest reports with reference to D III 602 Secret, that the Romanian government would leave it to the Reich Government to deport their Jews along with the German Jews to the ghettos in the East. They are not interested in having the Romanian Jews return to Romania.

The Legation in Zagreb has informed us that the Croat Government expresses gratitude for the gesture of the German Government; but it would appreciate the deportation of its Jews to the East (compare D III 624 Secret).

The Legation in Bratislava reported with reference to D III 661 Secret that the Slovak Government is fundamentally in agreement with the deportation to the eastern ghettos. But the Slovak claims to the property of the Jews should not be endangered.

The wire reports have also been submitted, as customary, to the Reich Foreign Minister's Bureau.

On the basis of the reports of the Ministers, I have informed the RSHA with reference to D III 661 Secret that the Jews of Romanian, Croat, and Slovak nationality could also be deported; their property should be blocked. The Director of the Political Division, Section IV of the Political Division, Section IX of the Legal Division and Section IV of the Division for the Economic Policy have cosigned the document. Accordingly, the deportations of the Jews from the occupied territories was undertaken.

  1. The number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs there. The RSHA therefore, acting on the instruction of the Reichsführer-SS, approached the Foreign Office to ask the Slovak Government to make 20,000 young, strong Slovak Jews from Slovakia available for deportation to the East. The German Legation in Bratislava was provided, by D III 874, with proper instruction. The instruction was signed by the State Secretary, the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division, and Section IV of the Political Division.

The Legation in Bratislava reported re D III 1002 that the Slovak Government has taken up the suggestion eagerly; the preparatory work could be begun.

Following up this pleased concurrence of the Slovak Government, the Reichsführer-SS proposed that the rest of the Slovak Jews also be deported to the East and Slovakia thereby be made free of Jews. The Legation was, re D III 1559 Ang. II, provided with proper instruction. The draft of the instruction was signed by the State Secretary; after its dispatch it was submitted for their information to the bureau of the Reich Foreign Minister and the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division.

As the Slovak Episcopacy meanwhile raised objections to the deportation of the Jews before the Slovak Government, the instruction carries the express statement that in no case must there develop internal political difficulties on account of the evacuation of the Jews in Slovakia. By the telegraphic report, re D III 2006, the Legation reported that the Slovak Government, without any German pressure, has declared itself agreeable to the deportation of all Jews and that the State President agreed personally to the deportation. The telegraphic report was submitted to the bureau of the Reich Foreign Minister. The Slovak Government had furthermore agreed that it will pay as a contribution to the cost entailed RM 500 for every evacuated Jew.

In the meantime 52,000 Jews have been removed from Slovakia. Due to church influences and the corruption of individual officials 35,000 Jews have received a special legitimation. However, Minister President Tuka wants the Jewish removal continued and therefore has asked for support through diplomatic pressure by the Reich (compare D III 3865). The Ambassador is authorized to give this diplomatic help in that he may state to State President Dr. Tiso that the exclusion of the 35,000 Jews is a surprise in Germany, the more so since the cooperation of Slovakia up to now in the Jewish problem has been highly appreciated here. This instruction has been cosigned by the Under State Secretary in charge of the Political Division, and the State Secretary.

[–]Trucker_Joe 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

bet he wouldn't get fired if he said he couldn't confirm mass killings perpetrated by communists were 'factual' events

[–]critias 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

On the list of racial privilege, he should have known hebrews were at the top

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

makes no sense anyway, he is a principal, and if asked how he'd teach holocaust he should transfer the question on to teachers, who could then show excerpts about it from a textbook or something, what he believes wouldn't matter

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yea he makes statements like that I'm sure it's not his first full retard moment.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a lot of times those in admin at schools get cocky especially principals. probably makes 300k and drives a corvette

he was on vacation in jamiaca when he got word he was fired

[–]Entropick 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

giant. balls.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

In America today and in our schools. We have educators right now who should be fired. This is one of them.

[–]Zahn 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Low quality opinion shit post. We shouldn't question anything, just believe what got published, keep your head down and shut up?

[–]vaganger 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You can't even put a proper sentence together, retard.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Got ya. Mutt

[–]vaganger 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Niggerfaggot.

[–]pointyball 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Fellow white people, he is a persecuted minority. Anyone saying he deserved to be fired is racist.

[–]Yogi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

F

[–]potipharbreen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's pretty much confirmed. Both the Allies and Russians discovered ghastly camps with piles of dead bodies. The numbers though, seem to get exaggerated with each passing year. When they censored Zundelsite - causing it to multiply around the world - I read it thoroughly, and he seemed to make a pretty good case - they simply did not have the capacity to dispose of, turn to ash, of the multiple millions claimed. It takes a certain amount of fuel/energy to turn a human body to ash. The nazis certainly disposed of many people, but the numbers claimed are doubtful. Most died of typhus and starvation. But how many?

To me it's a moot question. One million or 7 million. It was a lot, and there is no doubt the nazis intended to eradicate Jews from Europe.

Their final solution was extermination.

It's kinda like arguing about the numbers of Indians were eradicated in North America. The sheer numbers are exaggerated to multiply the outrage factor.

Millions seem most likely.

[–]Kormaken 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Hey teacher is this 100% true?"

"If I say it isn't I'll get fired."

Suddenly doesn't sound so good anymore.

[–]Theo_Fridall 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We need to "Streisand Effect" this....