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[–]HopeThatHalps 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I consistently contend, however, that liberals (many positions with which I agree) have not thought the issue through.

I'm sort of a nihilist liberal, the main reason I don't mind immigration is because they dillute the unkilled labor market, and by doing so force able bodied people to "get skills", which results in 1) a greater sum overall skill, when a person who can read and write realizes that maybe their talents are being wasted collecting trash and pulling weeds, and 2) unskilled labor gets even cheaper, which drives down the overall cost of living. So my overall view about socialized healthcare, so long as we're benefiting from cheaper low skilled labor, it makes sense to protect the investment and not incentivize them to turn to crime. If you have an "every man is an island" poltical philosophy, then all these islands will perpetualy be at war with one another.

Look, when I go to the doctor's and I see people who I know damn well are illegal aliens getting better health care than I do I get pretty upset.

I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows this to be true, because ultiamtely this is anecdotal. It might just be that you are healthier than the illegal immigrant you witnessed getting quality healthcare.

[–]indianusjones 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

force able bodied people to "get skills"

In my case I'm IT (enterprise UNIX/Linux grade) and got clobbered after 25 years by a different kind of immigrant: 100,000 H1B Visas p/yr.

I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows this to be true, because ultiamtely this is anecdotal.

True. Here you go.

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

H1B Visas

That's a different issue from border security, sanctuary cities. In that case it's the big software companies advocating for the influx of cheap labor. It's not so much about letting people in as it is openly inviting them to come.

True. Here you go.

Just looking at the first article:

"Noncitizens and their children were less likely to have health insurance and a regular source of care and had lower use than the U.S. born. The foreign born or non-English speakers were less satisfied and reported lower ratings and more discrimination."

This seems to contradict your point that they were getting golden treatment, and supports the idea that you're own reported experience might have been subject to confirmation bias; you noticed one brown looking fellow getting good service while perhaps not noticing many more who didn't, and possibly never will.

[–]indianusjones 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's a different issue from border security, sanctuary cities.

I'm referencing the idea that immigration forces people to "skill up." So you go to college, graduate, and get whacked on the high end from H1B's.

Americans cannot compete with H1B's (and remote workers) because we have housing, tax, and statutory obligations immigrants do not have; Americans' cost of living is higher and thus cannot compete on price.

This seems to contradict your point that they were getting golden treatment.

Sort of. See, I'm under so much pressure to work (knowing that a cheaper H1B will happily take my place) that I simply can't take days off for doctor visits for fear of losing my job.

"Rosaritta" has all day.

So effectively, they are not getting golden treatment but they are getting some treatment and it is putting a heavy strain on the system. By zero-sum every resource that is put into an illegal alien is also a resource that a tax-paying, working citizen is not receiving to the tune of billions each year and "wasted" effort.

I used to work at a hospital. I saw tattood Mexicans in chains escorted by police going down the hall and thinking, "what the fuck." Notice there's a lot going on here:

  • The police who have to be called off
  • The staff who have to process the "patient"
  • The people in proximity who are in jeopardy if the illegal has an infectious disease
  • The doctors having to take time out of their busy schedule, causing suffering of others
  • The court system's resources to prosecute
  • The prison system to incarcerate
  • Resources for care for the victim if this is a violent crime
  • The deportation system to deport

All this for a single scumbag that shouldn't be here in the first place. Multiply this by 10's of thousands and now lump on all the dependents.

I mean, "honestly."

Finally, because they and their kids aren't getting immunized they're spreading disease. That's awesome.

But hey, I save a few thousand on my house and a few bucks for my groceries so it's worth it, right?

[–]HopeThatHalps 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm referencing the idea that immigration forces people to "skill up." So you go to college, graduate, and get whacked on the high end from H1B's.

OK, build the Great Wall of Privilege along the southern border, but obviously that won't solve your H1B visa problem. It's a separate issue entirely.

Sort of. See, I'm under so much pressure to work (knowing that a cheaper H1B will happily take my place) that I simply can't take days off for doctor visits for fear of losing my job. "Rosaritta" has all day.

Honestly this is just sad. For every unemployed, undeserving, non-immunized immigrant, I have ZERO reason to believe there is not an unemployed, undeserving, non-immunized legal citizen, and neither do you. You principally seem to be bothered by the fact that they are different people.

As I said earlier, with all the benefits of a free public education, there is very little reason an American born citizen should feel economically threatened by a border crosser, unless that American born citizen has grossly underutilized themselves, and has in turn become a burden to society in the same respect that any immigrant might be.

[–]indianusjones 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK, build the Great Wall of Privilege along the southern border, but obviously that won't solve your H1B visa problem. It's a separate issue entirely.

What do you want from me? I'm telling you the facts. You say, "level up to avoid immigrants." I say, "immigrants are at the top too." The sources are different but the problem and effects are the same.

Sort of. See, I'm under so much pressure to work (knowing that a cheaper H1B will happily take my place) that I simply can't take days off for doctor visits for fear of losing my job. "Rosaritta" has all day.

Honestly this is just sad.

Look, immigrants cause competition, spread disease, depress wages, and consume valuable resources. These are facts.

The response I get is, "oh, they just look different than you, you sad racist." Responses like this that don't address the legitimate facts are part of the problem.

I don't think you understand resource allocation and logistics. I don't think you understand zero-sum economics.

You must address the unfair resource allocation and disease issues before we can continue this conversation and certainly before you, in the face of cold, hard, facts imply that I am racist.

Addendum:

I have ZERO reason to believe there is not an unemployed, undeserving, non-immunized legal citizen, and neither do you

We're not talking about US citizens. I brought up H1B's (openly invited or not) only because "leveling up" was offered as a way to supposedly not be affected by immigration. Unemployed US citizens could be pink, lolipop-sucking unicorns with weird sexual kinks but it's irrelevant for this discussion.

While we're at it, let's get down to brass tacks. The US is a sovereign nation just like Mexico, just like Canada; all have the right to create and enact their laws. Illegal immigration is illegal, period.

So we get this, "oh, so you want to make a great wall of privilege." You're welcome to your opinion and may even have valid points. That's fine.

What you may not do is violate our sovereignty or our laws. If you'd like some law-breaking and some sovereignty violations the US will simply invade Mexico. How would that be?

I realize that the above paragraph is way over the top. I feel strongly that everyone benefits by being good neighbors. The point I'm making is that there are quantifiably good reasons for opposing immigration and in the final analysis the immigration laws are there for good reason.

OK, build the Great Wall of Privilege along the southern border

Now that I'm thinking about it, let's roughly equate illegal immigrants to invaders (bad analogy, I know) and take the position that we should have open borders. If you don't agree it's like saying, "Germany should be permitted to invade France's "Great Wall of Privilege (Maginot Line)." If you disagree you really are just mostly concerned that germans look differently than you do and you're a sad racist."