And just like that...

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[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Another dumb thing the president has done in order to distract from how shitty he is. Also the democrats haven't really reacted in the way the meme implies. Useless_Aether is a propaganda account who lives up to their name

[–]Stoner 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Would you care to elaborate? You look like a propaganda shill when you “somebody did a thing" without actually saying what it is.

Following the standard US media click bait I now assume you have less than no argument for your point of view. Want to change my mind?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Not really. If you really care, just look it up.

[–]indianusjones 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, no: you brought it up, you follow through.

[–]SecretlyHistoric 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. If you bring it up, bring your sources.

[–]hennaojisan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I hear voat is a good place for fair and openminded democrats like you. Or maybe you might like reddit better. Anywhere but here.

[–]poestal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

no; their shouldn't be political "safespaces" for either side of the debate. we should have discourse of our personal beliefs challenged in order to keep each-other grounded, rather than going to each individuals ecochambers or silencing others opinions on neutral subs/forums.

reddit has become the far left tumblr esque eco-chamber and voat has become the far right 4/8 chans eco-chamber. saidit should be the middle ground.

[–]hennaojisan 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I have had enough of echo chambers on both sides but I would prefer that if people can't be civil they just GTFO. U/Useless_Aether is a part of the very heart and spirit of Saidit and there is no reason for a johnny-come-lately to cast aspersions on him. Let there be debate but no idle name-calling. The meek shall inherit the earth if that is all right with you. No context for that last sentence—I just wanted to end on an up note. BTW, I am neither republican nor democrat—a curse on both their houses.

[–]indianusjones 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Useless_Aether is a propaganda account who lives up to their name

Watch this: attacking the person making the argument (presuming the account is not set up solely for propaganda purposes by an organization) is an argumentative fallacy.

Even if this person is wrong 9 times out of 10 it does not necessarily mean they are wrong on this point.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

But he is wrong on this point

[–]SecretlyHistoric 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Still an argument against the person, not the point itself. Take a look at the pyramid of debate.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Take a look at Hitchen's razor.

[–]SecretlyHistoric 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But you made a claim as well, three actually. One about the president, one about the OP and another about the reaction of Democratics

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You clearly don't understand how this works. If the OP makes a random claim with no source then I am free to do the same. It's their job to prove the initial claim before I obligated to do a thing. You guys keep going on about the rules of argument but you clearly either don't actually know them or only care when it serves you.

[–]indianusjones 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In the case of a claim with no source you're absolutely correct. We've since provided sources. Your turn.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have not been provided a source.

[–]indianusjones 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Perhaps, but you need to justify your position regardless.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't. I'm not the one making a claim. They are making a claim that all of the sudden democrats don't want immigrants anymore. I haven't seen that from any reputaple news agency. It's up to the original claimant to defend their postion. Hitchen's Razor. A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It's not up to me to disprove it.

[–]indianusjones 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I take my previous reply ("This is the claim you made...") back as we'd moved to your claim "but he is wrong on this point."

I happily agree with you that the person making the original claim has the burden of proof.

We now focus on your statement held in the original post, that is, liberals suddenly don't want illegal aliens as it's now proposed that the immigrants will now be transferred to sanctuary cities.

The implication, of course, is that liberals (or democrats, etc.) realize they face an increase in crime, traffic, additional burden on social, health, policing, and education services, etc. with the influx of illegal aliens coming to their city. Please tell me if you think my analysis here is incorrect as I can provide statistics to show that this is in fact true.

I'm not trying to be slick here--we can only infer at the original post's point. The idea I presented above seems reasonable given the effect illegal aliens are known to have on the "native" population. The evidence spans historically also (1920's, etc.).

Your statement, "no, you're wrong" implies a counter claim. In this case you're implicitly saying, "no, sanctuary cities are actually welcoming the idea of a flood of illegal aliens."

To this I'd say you're right--I read an article that read about a politician slamming the President for the idea but careful to also say that the immigrants are welcome.

When we ask the population, however, we find that they feel immigration should be reduced. I highly suspect that the outcome would be sharper if we factored for race. Notice I'm not racist, just stating the numbers.

So you are, in fact, making a claim by telling the person they are wrong. You are under no obligation to provide evidence for this but your argument is weak if you do not provide evidence for your counter-claim.

If a police officer writes you a citation for speeding with a radar gun's printed record you can't just say, "you're wrong" without evidence.

edit: comma

[–]indianusjones 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Full disclosure: I live in Oregon. We've been taking illegal aliens in the ass for years. Our schools used to be good but are now overburdened. Our healthcare was statistically and observably better but are now over-burdened by health issues (something like 46% of all health-related costs) caused by immigrants.

The list goes on: higher crime rates, traffic, etc.

On top of all this illegal aliens don't pay taxes at the rate Oregonians do and, to add insult to injury, the immigrants bring their dependents with them.

Meanwhile, the argument is, "immigrants will do the work Americans won't do." Bullshit. The truth is that farmers can skirt labor laws using immigrants.

And for what? So we can save a few bucks on our produce?

So in reality, the farmers make higher profits while we--those who paid taxes and built the infrastructure--foot the bill and deal with the crime.

[–]indianusjones 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Useless_Aether is a propaganda account who lives up to their name

This is the claim you made that we're talking about and I responded to, not the original post.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

UA is hilarious! :-).

Although, I often disagree with him.