Users on r/FtM talking about how many of them were straight girls into yaoi (media that fetishizes gay men) before transitionYaoi (flair suggestions?)

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[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

One fascinating comment:

i was a lesbian who loved yaoi but was way to self conscious to actually believe it was more than just wanting to be one, but wanting to be with one, wishing i grew up a bisexual boy, only to come out as one. whoop. Yaoi has always been amazing tho, abs and pecks for days

I think it is worth observing, straight girls are not the only ones who may fall prey to the porn -> fetish -> transition pipeline. Just as you might have a gay male autogynephile, although it is rare, so you could have a lesbian autoandrophile (I'm forgetting the exact word for it).

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

One fascinating comment

There were two other comments like that (which you probably already saw too):

I was a lesbian that was into yaoi and wanted to identify as bi (no idea why) but was insistent on not being attracted to men. Can't really explain why being a guy that's into other guys makes so much more sense in my mind than being a girl that's into them, but it does, so I'm bi now lol

Oof all relatable! Was a lesbian into yaoi in high school and I felt awful for it. Years later, my SO came out as a trans man, and I realized "oh shit... I too am man" Now very happily in a gay relationship with another man. Yaoi called it. Life is weird.

It's not uncommon for bisexual autoandrophilic women to identify as lesbians pretransition.

although it is rare, so you could have a lesbian autoandrophile (I'm forgetting the exact word for it)

Sexual orientation is the attraction pattern not the identity in my opinion and they all had bisexual attraction patterns. They liked yaoi, wanted to be with men, identity as bi now so they are clearly bisexual. It's seems quite common for dysphoric autandrophilic females to fear being seen as women by men thus they don't want to be with men "as women" and some also see being a lesbian as the way to be "the man" with a woman. When they transition they feel comfortable to follow their attractions to men as it's no longer dysphoria-inducing to them.

Lesbians are not attracted to men in the first place, it's doesn't depend on the state of our bodies, had we been men we would still only be attracted to women.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It's not uncommon for bisexual autoandrophilic women to identify as lesbians pretransition.

True, I ought not underestimate how regularly people mislabel themselves. I have even met someone like this IRL, a self-described lesbian yet she usually hooked up with men.

Sexual orientation is the attraction pattern not the identity in my opinion

Yeah, I don't even know what the "identity" is supposed to mean. I linked a post on s/lgbdropthet that had expressed a similar belief but about bisexuals: "you are a bisexual if you feel like a bisexual, or if you like the flag" like yes you'd be bisexual if you having feelings in the pattern that a bisexual does-- attraction to both opposite and same sex-- but otherwise, being a part of a demographic group does not "feel" like anything.

and some also see being a lesbian as the way to be "the man" with a woman.

Yuck. Love the stereotypes.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yuck. Love the stereotypes.

I’m not sure if the autoandrophilic females who identify as lesbians to feel more like men are all doing it due to gender stereotypes though, aka wanting to feel masculine, or because it makes them feel more “male” (they might role-play having male genitals), it probably depends on the types of autoandrophilia they have, as auto*philia can be behavioral, anatomical etc.

I think Michael Bailey/Blanchard have said that HSTS in males and females ought not to be seen as mirror images. Autandrophilia and autogynephilia should probably not be seen as mirror images either. It’s worth noting though that Michael Bailey/Blanchard are skeptical about the existence of autoandrophilia but they are skeptical about paraphilic females in general. I think they are more recently open about the idea of autohomerotic females though. In my eyes autoandrophilic females definitely exist and are not so uncommon either (too much evidence for it and I’ve talked to autoandrophilic females) and I think autohomeroticism is a form of auto*phila, not an entirely different thing. Blanchard’s clinical experience is from an earlier time though and autoandrophilic females transitioning seem to be a more recent pattern than autogynephilic males transitioning so he might not have met that many autoandrophilic females during the time he was active. Also Blanchard is gay, and that was probably why he could recognize autogynephilia wasn’t a typical homosexual male phenomena (other researchers at the time seemed to see autogynehilia as something that probably was common in feminine homosexual men). But Blanchard is a man, so he would have other blind spots regarding paraphilic women.

I suspect some patterns in autoandrophilia is somewhat the reverse of autogynephilia. Some autogynephilic men who were previously only interested in women find themselves interested in men after transition, as being with men makes them feel more like women. I think some autoandrophilic women seek out relationships which makes them feel more like men pre-transition but are more likely to indulge in their other attractions after transition when they feel more comfortable with how they think they are seen. I think cross-sex hormones usually reduces the the sex drive in men but increases the sex-drive in women. So maybe autogynephilic male transitioners who have their sex drive reduced are more likely to seek out sex for gender euphoric reasons (strong auto*philia probably works somewhat similar to a sexual orientation, having romantic component, not just a sexual one). Androphilic females who take hormones increasing their sex drive might instead find it harder to resist acting on their previously dysphoria-inducing attractions to men.

I’m a curious person so I read many studies regarding homosexuality due to being homosexual myself. But then I started reading about adjunct topics too as I wanted to see the overall patterns and correlations to understand things better. I joined a place for such discussions which had self-aware dysphoric auto*philic members (who were interested in topic due to their auto*philia). I was on the old debate sub on reddit too and trans people who described their dysphoria in the same as self-aware dysphoric auto*philic people describe theirs usually trash-talked auto*philic people as trenders who can’t feel dysphoria. I think there are many misconceptions about auto*philia like which makes auto*philic people not realize they are auto*philic (seeing dysphoria as proof they can't be auto*philic). Most people with auto*philia have a weak form of it and usually don’t wish to be the opposite sex. Those who have a strong form of auto*philia can be very dysphoric though (extreme cases where dysphoric people have cut off their off genitals themselves where probably auto*philic, not HSTS).

I also think the stigmatization of auto*philia isn’t really doing any side any good. It leads to people not wanting to recognize their auto*philia due to the stigma and I think non-aware dysphoric auto*philic people are those who are likely to spread the idea of universal gender identities as they mistake their auto*philia as a gender identity thing and assume their own experience of auto*philia (gender identity) is universal in the sex they want to be. Gender non-conforming homosexual transitioners who buy into the idea of gender identities might see gender identity as a disposition for masculinity/femininity instead which also leads to problems.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Blanchard’s clinical experience is from an earlier time though and autoandrophilic females transitioning seem to be a more recent pattern than autogynephilic males transitioning so he might not have met that many autoandrophilic females during the time he was active. Also Blanchard is gay, and that was probably why he could recognize autogynephilia wasn’t a typical homosexual male phenomena (other researchers at the time seemed to see autogynehilia as something that probably was common in feminine homosexual men). But Blanchard is a man, so he would have other blind spots regarding paraphilic women.

This is my thought as well. And you mention some interesting potential patterns about AGP vs autoandrophilia ("AAP"?). Hopefully there will be some actual research on this demographic, otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of question marks on these topics. Just wanted to leave a quick note btw-- I posted about a blog run by someone who identifies as an autoandrophile, I haven't looked into it much but you might find it interesting.

edit: Just wanted to add, I totally agree that stigmatizing these fetishes is harmful and that people ought not be shamed for having them.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

autoandrophilia ("AAP"?)

Yeah that’s what they call it unofficially.

Hopefully there will be some actual research on this demographic, otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of question marks on these topics.

Yeah hopefully there will be some official research done soon. There is a guy who does surveys about the topics and according to his surveys it seems AAPs are more genital-focused than AGPs (I.e they think more about the penis than AGPs about the vagina). Bisexual people seem to be the group who are the most AAP/AGP and AAP and AGP seem to correlate with each other, i.e a person can have both AAP/AGP (turned on by both masculinization/feminization). According to his surveys “lesbians” are as AAP as bisexuals but he has another definition of lesbian (homoflexible, including women who are attracted to men in some capacity too). In the only survey he where he distinguished between “strictbians” and “flexbians” then exclusively homosexual women had lower rate of AAP (the same rate as straight women). Reddit seems to be an unusually paraphilic place though. I was curious about how bisexuality works like (as there are some indications that bisexuality has another etiology than homosexuality, aka probably not a light form of homosexuality) so I made survey for bisexuals with 500 respondents and included questions about AAP/AGP, and it seemed like 60% of the respondents had some form of it. It’s probably quite common among people answering internet surveys overall as according to this study about half of the respondents of the internet survey they conducted seemed to have some form of erotic target identity inversion too. Perhaps paraphilias correlates with traits that makes a person more likely to spend time online.

EDIT: But I suspect weak forms of AAP/AGP are quite common in general population (but not as crazy common as on reddit though lol), but I think it’s probably as common as the sexual minorities combined (I think there is some data saying it's around 15% but I might recall wrong).

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was curious about how bisexuality works like (as there are some indications that bisexuality has another etiology than homosexuality, aka probably not a light form of homosexuality) so I made survey for bisexuals with 500 respondents and included questions about AAP/AGP, and it seemed like 60% of the respondents had some form of it.

Bi woman here; not AAP (as far as I know), but also curious about how bisexuality works. Particularly because it seems to receive surprisingly little attention. Very interested to hear that it might have a different etiology than homosexuality; this is, for me-- as that GIF of Phoebe from Friends says-- "brand-new information"! Would you mind telling me more? (I pretty much always have my antennae straining to detect signs of anything bi-related.)

I've been thinking, and writing (mostly here on SaidIt), about the "you don't exist" sexual orientation lately; almost seems like I'm doing original work much of the time, given the dearth of material out there. Would be thrilled to find some bi-stuff that I didn't have to create myself!

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There hasn't been done much research on bisexuality as researchers have often been lazy and put homosexuals and bisexuals in a one big group and then compared the average of that to straight people (not caring if homosexuals and bisexuals might have had scores in opposite directions compared to straight people). But if bisexuality was in etiology a lighter form of homosexuality then we would generally expect in traits where homosexuals and heterosexuals tend to differ bisexuals would score somewhere in between heterosexuals and homosexuals. I think bisexuals tend to score somewhere between heterosexuals and homosexuals in gender conformity but in other traits bisexuals tend to score at the ends, not in the middle.

Homosexuals tend to have a higher rate of addictions than straight people but bisexual people tend to have higher rate of addictions than both groups. Bisexual women score higher on dark triad traits. Lesbians seem to have a higher criminality rate (judging by conviction rate) than straight women (seem to be a big gap between straight women and lesbians) but bisexual women seem to have a higher criminality rate than lesbians. Gay men in other hand seem to have a much lower criminality rate than straight men, but bisexual men seem to have a higher criminality rate than both gay men and straight men. Bisexual women score higher on sociosexuality than lesbians and straight women. Bisexual women tend to report a higher sex drive than straight women and lesbians. Bisexual men tend to rate high on curiosity. Bisexual people tend to score higher on neuroticism than other groups.

Researchers have started to realize that bisexuality and homosexuality might be different and it has been suggested that bisexual people might have some latent trait that makes them more open to experience. That latent trait could perhaps also correlate with more risk-taking, it wouldn't mean every bisexual person would be risk-taker, or that most would be, just a bit more likely, people are still individuals (many of the traits in the paragraph above are things men tend to rate higher on, and it's been theorized that lesbians might have been exposed to more prenatal androgens, so that could be the case for bisexual women too but with a different timing of the exposure masculinizing different things).

But there could be more than one etiology/pathway that leads to bisexuality, in that case these etiologies could have different correlations. Lately research has taken more notice of heteroflexible women which is a relatively big group, so one probably needs to study heteroflexible women and see if they differ from other bisexual women, and if different Kinsey scores correlate with different things.

[–]gendercritfem 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lots of FtMs are attracted to men but repress it pre-transition because dating men before transition makes them feel female and dysphoric. This is super common among bisexual ones.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah gotcha, I hadn't thought of that.

[–]Athelhilda2 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would argue that a woman being interested in or relating to a gay male relationship is not necessarily straight or bisexual. Some people just naturally relate better to the opposite sex, myself included.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would argue that a woman being interested in or relating to a gay male relationship is not necessarily straight or bisexual.

I think if a women is interested in having a gay male romantic and/or sexual relationship then she is androphilic and maybe autoandrophilic too. It seems weird to me that someone would be interested in having a romantic/sexual relationship she is sexually/romantically repelled by, seems more likely that this person actually has a romantic/sexual interest in it. If a lesbian-identifying woman says she would be a gay man if she had been a man and means it, then I don't regard her as a lesbian, as she is evidently attracted to men and just doesn't want to be with men due to the state of her body.

relate better

I'm not saying that women who simply relate better to men are bisexual or straight. I also have more platonic ties with men than women, I'm not attracted to them and I'm not the type men tend to be attracted to either.

Androphilia is being attracted to men romantically and/or sexually, not relating better to men in a platonic way. Autoandrophilia is being romantically and/or sexually attracted to being a man. In rare cases there could perhaps be someone whose androphilia is completely inverted (only has the auto-version), then that person could be a lesbian (the outcome) as that she is only sexually attracted to women and sexually attracted to the idea of being the man herself but not sexually attracted to men (except for the idea of being one). But as people with auto*philia often have a hard time distinguishing between wanting to be someone and wanting to be with someone as it's often both at the same time for them, some are androphilic autoandrophilic women (i.e has other-attraction to men too) initially think it's only admiration, and then if she transitions (taking testosterone) she might realize she is not only attracted to having these features, she is also want to be with men with these features.