Study results: Yeah you guys remember how we said electric cars emit less CO2 than internal combustion? Yeah . . . not so much.

submitted by iamonlyoneman from (mdpi.com)

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[–]iamonlyoneman[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

a more accessible take: https://notrickszone.com/2022/05/23/continued-use-of-combustion-vehicles-leads-to-much-lower-lifetime-co2-emissions-than-driving-evs/

[–][deleted]  (10 children)

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    [–]iamonlyoneman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    The premise is that you are buying an electric car new to replace a gas car. Miss that and you miss the entire thing.

    [–][deleted]  (8 children)

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      [–][deleted]  (6 children)

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        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        There need to be improvements in the potential to recycle lithium-ion batteries, but perhaps this will develop in due course.

        Personally I think hydrogen needs to be the solution for vehicles. Batteries are very inefficient at storing energy compared to electrolysis, and have massive disposal/recyclability issues to boot. The 'Use Case' for batteries needs to be for items where it is infeasible or impractical to attach a power plant to a portable device. Think your iphone, your airpods, your laptop computer. We are quite used to including power plants in cars, and this does not require the unsustainable mining of lithium and other rare earth metals.

        [–]hfxB0oyA 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        I like the idea of hydrogen, but I've heard it's hard to store long term because the size of a hydrogen atom is so small (literally the smallest) that it leaks through containers more readily than any other gas.

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        I like the idea of hydrogen, but I've heard it's hard to store long term because the size of a hydrogen atom is so small (literally the smallest) that it leaks through containers more readily than any other gas.

        You are correct that there are infrastructure issues...Hydrogen also likes to be a gas which takes up a massive volume, and makes it hard to 'pump'. It needs to be stored as a liquid with massive cooling and/or pressurization in terms of creating the infrastructure to completely replace gasoline. I will grant that this is a substantial enough issue that it would take too long to go straight to hydrogen cars from gasoline. Electric is likely something we have to make due with for now, but I don't think it is ideal. Hydrogen adoption at the grid level is probably the best way to begin. Use the excess electricity produced by solar and wind to perform electrolysis, and use the hydrogen for off cycles

        [–]iamonlyoneman[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        The only pressure the battery industry will care about will be from regulation or legislation. Consumers don't care enough yet.

        [–]Jong56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        You seriously think a lithium based battery will last 10+ years (without losing 50% of it's capacity) while enduring freezing cold, extreme heat, irregular cyclic charging, and constant software updates which change the battery behavior?

        Hint: you're mistaken.

        [–]Tums_is_Smut_bkwrds 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        The point isn't how long an EV will last (under regular use), because an ICE powered car can easily last 15-20 with proper maintenance too. Rather it's that the current consumer behavior is to replace their vehicle relatively frequently. I don't know what the average figure for length of new car ownership is but 5 years sounds reasonable to me. Heck I've know people who wouldn't own a car for longer than 2 years.

        The authors acknowledge this in the final sentence of the conclusion: "This shows that only a complete change in “consumption” habits can help reduce CO2 emissions and fight global warming."

        [–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        People at all levels like simple stories, and that is the root of electric cars. It never required a lot of digging to see why electric cars were never going to be the "carbon solution" they claimed to be, but nobody at any level (the "educated" elite are actually more guilty of this than the people they sneer down at) wanted to ask any questions. They just went, "Ooh! Shiny new toy! This is the next thing!" People like toys. The repeated following of this mantra for a couple of centuries has just about exhausted our resource base to the point that we are looking at actual food shortages shortly. Yet most still don't make the connection between these two elements of human experience.

        [–]hfxB0oyA 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison from the start:

        1. They're comparing buying a brand new EV car every 5 years and essentially throwing the old one out vs. maintaining a gas powered one for 15+ years.

        2. The electricity generation in question focuses on how it's made in Poland, which is mostly coal-fired at the moment.

        So by these measures, this study makes sense (if Polish people are indeed prone to buying a new electric car every 5 years). I doubt it has much application in the rest of the world however.

        [–]Jong56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Have you seen the build quality of a Tesla? It won't be around in 15 years and even if it is still running, it's batteries will need to have been replaced two or three times in the same period unless you're cool with <100 mile range

        [–]hfxB0oyA 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Tesla battery life article, for anyone who's interested in this thread of the debate.

        [–]Anman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Anytime large amounts of batteries are in an enclosed space in an industrial application, you absolutely will die if you walk into the room with a cigarette. This has been known for decades and is even more true now for lithium and even nickel. Also the whole processing and disposal process and all that.

        [–]Jong56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        It's surprising it takes 5-10 years for society to catch up with the educated individual's common sense.

        Simply producing lithium batteries consumes more resources than constructing and running a steel and aluminium engine by an order of mgnintude.

        [–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        dinosaurs are a hoax to force a perspective of lack existing.. and eminent destruction

        oil is bio mass from dead bugs/trees/animals

        it is literally the most natural thing available