Why your beliefs about the holocaust is a lose lose situation.

submitted by jacques1102 from self.debatealtright

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[–]oligarchracy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Let me ask you this. Was dropping atomic bombs on civilian cities any less cruel than deporting them to camps and killing them? I mean both were horrible, but the US knew full well what radiation did to human beings, as they saw first hand the horrible deaths of scientists exposed to it, and yet they dropped the bombs anyway.

If the war in Europe had dragged on they would have dropped those bombs on German cities too, I mean the Germans were who the bombs were originally intended for, hence the heavy Jewish involvement in the Manhattan project, and they were going to do this before anyone had even heard of gas chambers.

[–]jacques1102[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is literally whataboutism.The allies liberated a total of 700,000 people from the concentration camps at the end of the war. Not a few people saying "hey, they were killing all of us," but 700 fucking thousand. What about the families of the 6 million deceased? Still around for the most part and can vouch that yup, the Germans killed our family member(s).

[–]oligarchracy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The allies liberated a total of 700,000 people from the concentration camps at the end of the war. Not a few people saying "hey, they were killing all of us," but 700 fucking thousand.

But then that begs the question, if these were extermination camps and the Nazis were hell bent on exterminating all Jews, why were there so many survivors? It's a logical question. These people were in these camps for years. If someone is deprived of food and water they can die in weeks, if not days.

The Russians took nearly 100,000 prisoners at Stalingrad, of those I think less than 6,000 survived the war. No elaborate gas chambers were required to get rid of them. How is it that these extermination camps had many hundreds of thousands of survivors who lived years, but almost no German POWs survived after Stalingrad? If your goal is to exterminate someone, what the Russians did to those German POWs is what you would expect to see.

What about the families of the 6 million deceased? Still around for the most part and can vouch that yup, the Germans killed our family member(s).

Well then it should be relatively easy to prove it was 6 million. Instead whenever I see how that number came about they talk about "census figures", which if you want to come up with an accurate number has numerous severely problematic issues. Why aren't census figures used to come up with a precise number of killed in the holodomor? Why is it if I looked at encyclopedias for every year since the holodmor I can find a dozen wildly different estimates of the number of killed, but the 6 million number has never been changed or revised. That's highly suspicious.

[–]jacques1102[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You do know we have a variety of sources that we've drawn on to come up with our estimate for the number of Holocaust victims, including records from Nazi Germany, its allies, Jewish communities, censuses and other government documents, and various documents and witness reports collected by the postwar investigative commissions? That said, it is still an estimate. 6 million is the round number used for public consumption, but scholars do give differing estimates, generally between 5.5 and 6 million.We have a very good idea of the numbers of people who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps and within the concentration camp system. The Germans kept detailed records on concentration camp prisoners, and documents like railroad waybills allow for fairly precise estimates of the number of people who were killed in the extermination camps as well. The six main extermination camps (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka) is around 2.7 million. Another 150,000 Jews died in the Nazi concentration camp system, and we can be quite confident in those numbers. The figures for deaths within the Jewish ghettos established by the Nazis in Eastern Europe are a bit less certain, but we know at least 800,000 died. Yad Vashem has documented many of these people by name, and their list adds up to about 4.8 million people. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

[–]oligarchracy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because of Jewish obsession with the 6 million number, no mainstream historian could ever cast doubt on the number, as Jews aggressively gatekeep such investigation and will destroy anyone who says otherwise. Seeing as how most of these historians were themselves Jewish they don't even have to threaten most of them. After the end of ww2 British intelligence estimated 4 million Jews died, and while I have no idea if that number is accurate, its one of the few unbiased estimates by people with first hand knowledge of the situation.

I listened to David Cole talk at length about the issue, and this was after he had done everything possible to get the Jewish bounty off his head removed and was trying to point out that the hardcore Holocaust denialists were wrong, and he came up with a death toll of about 3.7 million, give or take several hundred thousand. He claimed that he believes the Nazis did experiment with gas chambers in a couple of camps, but that it is extremely unlikely gas was used for mass executions at auschwitz, and there is no hard evidence of that and much evidence that contradicts it. His take seems the most objective and plausible that I've seen. He has no real reason to lie and if anything has much reason to error on the side of exaggerating the Holocaust.

A few years ago I did spend a little bit of time looking into how they arrived at the 6 million number. At the time I was generally accepting of the Holocaust narrative, including the 5-6 million number and had already heard of all the claims you just made, and I was setting out to convince alt righters to drop this holocaust denial shit, so I was expecting to see some pretty conclusive evidence. I was shocked by how little there was, despite all the usual claims that "the nazis kept meticulous records". In the end they really did have to fall back on inaccurate census claims because the nazii records wernt as precise, all encompasing and unanimous as you claim. It seemed like they basically set out to cherry pick what evidence they could find to support the preexisting 6 million claim. Obviously to retain some credibility they had to say well it could have been as low as 5.5 million, and I think it was Raul Hilberg who kind of covered their lowest acceptable numbers bases by going as low as 5.1 million. The Hilberg study was probably the most credible and extensive, and even then there were numerous glaring holes, assumptions, and leaps of logic that I immediately had questions that I never found any attempt at answering.

The Vad Yashem names list isnt reliable. It has so many duplicate names and so many people on the list were found to actually be living, and the organization itself is so biased that no intellectually honest person would give it any creedence. Which is a shame because many people on the list likely did die as a direct result of Nazi atrocities.

[–]oligarchracy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The term "whataboutism" is some stupid manufactured shitlib term used by neocons/neolibs in an attempt to obscure jewish misbehavior. You see it from shills on reddit all the time, and hear neocons in the media use it non stop.

So if for example some establishment neocon/libs are blathering on and on about how Russia invaded Ukraine, if you point out the US did worse to Iraq and numerous other middle east countries, or point out Israel routinely bombs neighbors and occupies Palestinians, they bring up this stupid nonsensical made up word whataboutism thinking that will somehow shut down all debate.

So yeah I'm not surprised you'd use the term so you can blather on and on endlessly about the holocaust.