you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]NeoRail[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Initially I also suspected that Putin may have used the war to try and get rid of Dugin, but I don't think that's it. Dugin lacks the influence to threaten Putin, and besides this event will only generate public sympathy for him. In all likelihood, I think the Ukrainians must have done this. I think they should be aware that Dugin has no power in Russia, but this is probably just their way of lashing out in an act of ethnic vengeance without any considerations of strategy coming into play - there has been plenty of that in the past months. Also, since in the West Dugin is presented as some shadowy mastermind in control of Russia, it is possible that they may have aimed at some PR victory in order to demonstrate that they can strike back and win the war despite the lack of any military success.

I don't think Dugin knew about this or switched cars for any specific reasons. After all, it is his daughter who died, and he seems to be in shock. It was probably just a coincidence. I also don't think this was an internal issue, because it seems like a very major escalation for an internal conflict. There are much more civilised ways to resolve political disagreements.

As a side note, there are a lot of really awful people in these Twitter threads. Under the tweet you sent me, some people are discussing the potential murder of Zhirinovsky's children, despite them having nothing to do with his politics. I have also already seen lots of people gloating about Darya's murder as well, justifying it in all sorts of abhorrent ways. I am once again genuinely stunned. Perhaps the joke is on me for falling for a progressive talking point and assuming that we had left stuff like this behind us in the Middle Ages. Then again, whatever can be said about them, actual blood feuds at least had a traditional character, so this type of base bloodthirst is actually much worse.

(as far as I know, both were supportive of Putin, they only criticized him for not being more of a rignat).

What's a rignat? Rigger nationalism, as in anti-democracy?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

but this is probably just their way of lashing out in an act of ethnic vengeance without any considerations of strategy coming into play

Yeah I think this might be it, good point.

I don't think Dugin knew about this or switched cars for any specific reasons. After all, it is his daughter who died, and he seems to be in shock.

I wasn't implying he knew about it or something insidious, just the reason why he switched cars (as in, "you go home Darya, I'll stay a bit more" or something like that).

I have also already seen lots of people gloating about Darya's murder as well, justifying it in all sorts of abhorrent ways.

It must be that Ukrainians genuinely believe that Dugin is Putin's ideologue and the architect of war. If you believe that, I see why you would rejoice over this, because he'd be responsible for deaths of thousands, and Dugin's fate is worse than his own death quite frankly. Of course, I don't believe this, so it looks quite shocking to me as well.

I mean, there are genuinely bloodthirsty people, but most of them are ordinary people turned extremist because of all the propaganda they're fed.

What's a rignat?

Just me trying to be funny and failing lol, I meant russian wignat (similar to jignat).

[–]NeoRail[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I wasn't implying he knew about it or something insidious, just the reason why he switched cars (as in, "you go home Darya, I'll stay a bit more" or something like that).

That's probably it. They were at a festival and the name of the festival was Tradition, so it's possible that he just stayed behind to chat with others on political and philosophical matters.

It must be that Ukrainians genuinely believe that Dugin is Putin's ideologue and the architect of war.

It is not just Ukrainians either, I am seeing people from the NATO countries as well - Americans, Germans, Frenchmen etc.

I mean, there are genuinely bloodthirsty people, but most of them are ordinary people turned extremist because of all the propaganda they're fed.

I understand that it is very difficult to escape the effects of modern propaganda intellectually, but people still bear moral responsibility for their reaction to this propaganda. I think celebrating the murder of the family members of an enemy is a clear, universal line that should not be crossed. Propaganda alone is not sufficient in order to cross that line.

Just me trying to be funny and failing lol, I meant russian wignat

I see. I am actually not sure what Dugin's position is on reforming Russia. I assume he promotes a more hard-line approach to relations with the West? He claims to be against chauvinism, so I don't know what his stance on nationalism and ultranationalism is, exactly.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

but people still bear moral responsibility for their reaction to this propaganda

I share your sentiment, but then again, if Jonathan Greenblatt's hypothetical daughter, who is hypothetically supporter of his, was shot in the street by some hypothetical dindu, I wouldn't have any sympathy at all (in fact, it would be well deserved). I agree that the lack of respect for the dead is troubling, but "libs" have crossed that line in 1945 with what they did to Mussolini, and they kept crossing it again and again, keep crossing it, be it desacrating Ante Pavelić's tomb, playing with Franco's bones all the time, rejoicing over Tom Metzger's death, saying WLP deserved cancer, etc., etc.

I despise that, but it's important to understand where they're coming from, this is nothing new, especially if you think this guy and by proxy his supportive daughter are responsible for deaths of tens of thousands of your countrymen.

He claims to be against chauvinism, so I don't know what his stance on nationalism and ultranationalism is, exactly.

Honestly, this seems like a contradictory position he holds, you can't be anti-chauvinist and say "kill Ukrainians" on a video lol

He's just Russian imperialist, Eurasia from Dublin to Vladivostok type of guy. But like /u/send_nasty_stuff, I am not an expert so I welcome corrections if I'm wrong too. I only read a single book from Dugin, and it was about conspirology, not geopolitics.

[–]NeoRail[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't expect liberals to sympathise with their enemies, but there are still certain boundaries that ought to be respected. I think useless cruelty like this definitely lies outside those boundaries, but it is possible that this view of mine is less universal than I previously believed.

Honestly, this seems like a contradictory position he holds, you can't be anti-chauvinist and say "kill Ukrainians" on a video lol

I thought the same thing, which is why I double checked that quote earlier. Apparently, it's just another case of shameless journalistic lying. Dugin's statement was referring to anti-Russian political actors during the 2014 events in Ukraine, not to the Ukrainian people as a whole. The same despicable form of lying is already being used in order to tarnish Darya Dugina's reputation as well - some journalist on Twitter has quoted her as saying that "Ukrainians are subhuman/unpeople" and that Russians need to be harsher on them. The source he offered, meanwhile, shows her making a very different statement, specifically that a certain subset of the Ukrainian military and paramilitary forces are behaving in an inhuman manner, and that the Russian state should be harsher on Ukrainian servicemen found guilty of criminal acts. The outrageous, astonishing dishonesty that goes into a lie like this is underlined by the fact that Darya has only very recently passed. How journalists can live with themselves at all, I really cannot tell.

At any rate, I am assuming that the "Dublin to Vladivostok" quote is a similar case. To my knowledge, Dugin promotes the idea of a decentralised, pluralistic Eurasian empire based on Traditional principles and self-government - a rather different ideal to that of a new, exaggerated Russian imperialism. The issue is that, if I am understanding things correctly, Dugin's political ideas actually seem fairly sensible and in conformity with circumstances of the Russian state, in which case it is difficult to imagine why he has been marginalised instead of endorsed. It is also difficult to see where exactly his radical reputation is coming from, since he does not seem especially invested in nationalism or any form of revolutionary politics. He seems to be more concerned with a practical anti-liberalism than with anything else. I could imagine him as a revolutionary traditionalist, I suppose, but he doesn't seem to borrow too extensively from the Traditionalists either - his ideology seems to be an ideology of 'authenticity' to pre-modern culture, but doesn't strike me as especially revolutionary or holistic.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The outrageous, astonishing dishonesty that goes into a lie like this is underlined by the fact that Darya has only very recently passed. How journalists can live with themselves at all, I really cannot tell.

You know how when you lie you can feel it in your blood? I feel it as like heat in my face other people might feel something a bit different. But yeah, that's what jews and spiritual jews feel when they tell the truth about anything, hence the constant lying.

[–]oligarchracy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I dont think they see it in terms of lies or truth. They see it in terms of what benefits me and what can I make other people believe. Thats it. Truth is irrelevent, and strict adherence to truth is seen as a sign of stupidity.

They simply cant fathom why someone would tell the truth if its not advantageous to them. They figure people who do that are simply too dumb to lie effectively.

I actually saw an ashkenazi jew on ruqqus ridicule sephardic and mizrahi jews over their alleged lack of lying ability. He basically said they’re too dumb to subvert goys.

[–]oligarchracy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'll add that since they effectively took control over the internet and mobilized the Jewish community in attacking whites and suppressing criticism, they have shifted their tactics. They no longer attempt to convince people that their lies are the truth. They now basically just force people to believe their lies. You either believe them or they censor and deplatform you while threatening your livelyhood and freedom and mobilizing mobs to come after you. You saw this during the summer of Floyd and the mass deplatformings that occured shortly before and during it. People are literally too scared to say the truth now, and convince themselves the lies are true simply to avoid punishment and make life easier.

[–]NeoRail[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People are literally too scared to say the truth now, and convince themselves the lies are true simply to avoid punishment and make life easier.

This is absolutely a real phenomenon, and this principle can be used to explain all kinds of things, including for example the QAnon stuff.