The heroic/epics that Aryan youth read?

submitted by MarkimusNational Socialist from self.debatealtright

Does anyone know what they were? It was considered a rite of passage in old Indo-European societies when a boy is a teenager to be training a lot, and learn poetry. This continued into Knighthood and such too in medieval times.

Does anyone know what the particular poems were, was it the Odyssey? I guess the Bhagavad Gita would be one of them for those who were in India. Anyone know of any other examples of ancient poems that the Koryos would have been learning?

Small update: I have come across this book, but haven't read it so I don't know if it has details of what the specific poems were

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[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have not researched this topic before, but to my knowledge, at least in ancient Greece, poetry was a very social activity. There were many travelling artists and performers, who would recite all sorts of poems at festivals and public events. In all likelihood, ancient Greek youth were familiar with a very great number of poems, and depending on the region and the performer, they probably heard different versions of those same poems too. It should be noted that at the time poetry also had spiritual connotations, so it wasn't a purely secular activity in the sense that we are familiar with.

The Western European Middle Ages also offer some parallels. They also had performers - the troubadours. Those, however, tended to perform for a more distinctly exclusive and aristocratic audience. Arthurian myth and poetry probably come closest to the type of content you are interested with. Some poems and songs about knighthood also chose to work with more current material - the Templars and Hospitallers often feature in all kinds of stories. I could do some digging into medieval poetry if you would like, but I wouldn't be looking at the Arthurian stuff, since sorting that stuff out would probably require a good bit more research. Outside the Arthurian poetry, Dante might interest you as well.

I can't really comment on non-Greek, pagan Indo-European societies. I know too little about their relationship with poetry. To my knowledge, the Romans did not hold poetry to the same esteem as the Greeks. There are also some war or adventure related Germanic poems that I am sure you are familiar with, such as Beowulf and the Heliand, the latter of which we have discussed before. There is the Edda as well, which may perhaps be of interest to you - looking into the Edda and related subjects might possibly be illuminating. I don't really know much about the Edda, so I can't comment. Unfortunately, there is very little information about pagan Russia, but you might be interested in their bogatyr poems - unlike pagan mythological poetry, they do not feature supernatural elements, which I assume is due to the fact that they were compiled and put to writing after Russia was Christianised.

Going back to the Greeks, the Odyssey and the Illiad are probably the most major and influential poems you could read, if you are interested in works that had a very formative effect on Greek life, culture, and even politics.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have not researched this topic before, but to my knowledge, at least in ancient Greece, poetry was a very social activity. There were many travelling artists and performers, who would recite all sorts of poems at festivals and public events. In all likelihood, ancient Greek youth were familiar with a very great number of poems, and depending on the region and the performer, they probably heard different versions of those same poems too.

It's just like Skyrim!

It should be noted that at the time poetry also had spiritual connotations, so it wasn't a purely secular activity in the sense that we are familiar with.

According to Sallustius or Salutius depending on who you believe lol

"Theological myths suit philosophers, physical and psychic suit poets, mixed suit religious initiations, since every initiation aims at uniting us with the world and the Gods."

the Romans did not hold poetry to the same esteem as the Greeks

He was a Roman Neoplatonist and mentioned poets so I assume poets were still quite widespread then, I have no knowledge of it though.

I can't really comment on non-Greek, pagan Indo-European societies. I know too little about their relationship with poetry. To my knowledge, the Romans did not hold poetry to the same esteem as the Greeks. There are also some war or adventure related Germanic poems that I am sure you are familiar with, such as Beowulf and the Heliand, the latter of which we have discussed before. There is the Edda as well, which may perhaps be of interest to you - looking into the Edda and related subjects might possibly be illuminating. I don't really know much about the Edda, so I can't comment. Unfortunately, there is very little information about pagan Russia, but you might be interested in their bogatyr poems - unlike pagan mythological poetry, they do not feature supernatural elements, which I assume is due to the fact that they were compiled and put to writing after Russia was Christianised.

Going back to the Greeks, the Odyssey and the Illiad are probably the most major and influential poems you could read, if you are interested in works that had a very formative effect on Greek life, culture, and even politics.

Yeah I have the Iliad and Odyssey, and the Poetic Edda (not the Prose one though, or the Icelandic Sagas or anything else yet). I'll get Beowulf, the Heliand, the Gita and Epic of Gilgamesh eventually too. Bogatyr stuff seems interesting too, I'll look into them more.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Theological myths suit philosophers, physical and psychic suit poets, mixed suit religious initiations, since every initiation aims at uniting us with the world and the Gods."

That sounds reasonable to me. Evola describes a similar dynamic with traditional structures - for example, a medieval knight would have his own experiences in different fields like religion, war etc. but by becoming associated with a traditional organisation, for example the Templars, all of his experiences become integrated in the name of a high cause, so instead of just living or just fighting, there is living for God, fighting for God, etc. The ability to remain loyal to this life of the heights is the proof of overcoming the human condition. The starting point is material being, which is then united with the transcendent factor (or spiritual being if you prefer), and then eventually the former is completely overcome and subordinated by the latter.

The website you've linked also makes another mention of the divine nature of myth and poetry in the second paragraph of section three. In relation to that, it might be worth mentioning Evola's view on the meaning of myth - the way I understand it, for him myth is essentially a superhistorical, metaphysical narrative. Instead of myth being 'primitive history', as many people are accustomed to think, myth is in fact above history, because it is an ordered, intellectualised, spiritual narrative which is imposed on the world and on mere history, which are material by nature, and are incapable of representing any higher spiritual horizons in and of themselves.

He was a Roman Neoplatonist and mentioned poets so I assume poets were still quite widespread then, I have no knowledge of it though.

Roman Neoplatonism belongs to a far later period than what I was thinking of, but I was more so referring to the popular, social level anyway. I imagine poets would have been popular with the Roman aristocracy, the wealthy, and also with higher class youth, at least. I am not sure if they had the same social poetic traditions as the Greeks though. The class of the common soldiers for example are not known for their aesthetic interests. I know very little about the Roman attitudes to poetry, so the topic might be worth investigating further.

Yeah I have the Iliad and Odyssey, and the Poetic Edda (not the Prose one though, or the Icelandic Sagas or anything else yet). I'll get Beowulf, the Heliand, the Gita and Epic of Gilgamesh eventually too. Bogatyr stuff seems interesting too, I'll look into them more.

The Gita is a bit more on the philosophical side, but it is probably my favourite text. It has a certain charge to it, if that makes sense. Occasionally, there is some difficult terminology in it, though.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was no mass literacy in the ancient world. Even in Aryan societies. People would have been told poems and stories. Only elites received formal education and a lot of that was language training. Being able to read at all or speak several languages was the mark of an education person pre middle ages. During the middle ages we get scholasticism which was a mix of religious and philosophical dialectic instruction. Scholasticism then becomes several different schools and of course there were schools with secret knowledge (which was code for knowledge that the church would reject). That's where we get the word esoteric.

So your title is a bit off but I see you've corrected yourself in the body. Yes youth would have been told poems and in higher quality families they'd be asked to memorize them. Rote memory was one of the earliest forms or semi formalized education. The rote memory tradition continued with the Christian tradition where non elite 'formal' education meant reading the bible multiple times and memorizing large parts of it.

I'm not sure exactly what poems would have been common. I think you'd need to specify the region and the time period because the poems and stories are going to vary wildy even in Europe. You've also seemingly jumped from asking about what was common in the ancient world to asking what was common in the middle ages. I'd start with German and British stuff because they actually keep semi good records of their own ethnic heritage. Of course we lost a LOT of books after the National Socialists lost the war. Books on all type of European traditions. Western elites used the post war period to privately and publicly purge the west of its past.

https://vho.org/censor/LuedersGB.html

edit. related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_fIWlu5zuo

[–]Nombre27 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

3 titles here

https://www.imperiumpress.org/shop/products/books/series/western/

I would also look here

http://www.colchestercollection.com/subjects/fiction.html