Questions on Whiteness, White Identity and White Culture

submitted by Fonched from (self.debatealtright)

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[–]Fonched[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I concern myself with past definitions of whiteness because of how much it is used within the realm of whiteness studies, and therefore I am looking for answers to those questions. It seems to relate to why people dislike whiteness in the present day, and supposed fluidity with certain groups becoming more middle-class.

So I'll start with this for us to go over. https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2184754/chinese-were-white-until-white-men-called-them-yellow

[–]Jackalope 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Interesting that Japanese did not consider themselves the same race as the Chinese, though not surprising. I rather disagree with the Japanese, while their skin tone and features are somewhat different, they share genetic traits (epicanthal eye fold) AND linguistic origins (Shared character system, similar to latin vs english). I don't think that the continent thing is ALL wrong.

However as u/Tuisto pointed out to me in a response, and I think very correctly - genetics clearly can't be all of race. If we perform the thought experiment of a gene therapy to make a Black person from the ghetto genetically white, it is fairly absurd to say they are now white on many levels. Clearly the culture factor is relevant as well.

This seems like the classic Nature vs Nurture argument framed as Genetics vs Culture where both factors are clearly relevant despite certain preferences people have for one over the other. You can't become white through gene therapy. You also cannot become white by being adopted by whites at birth (the 100% cultural case). To be 'White' would seem to have BOTH genetic and cultural implications of some sort as well.

Edit: I didn't state this but my arguments should make it obvious that I do not consider Chinese or Japanese to be White. Divergent genetics (Skin melanation epicanthal folds) + Completely different culture and language origins. I'm saying they need to meet both conditions, and they meet neither.

[–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well there is a paywall, so I am not getting far with that article. But your explanation does make sense.

The next topic I would like to speak of is brought up in one of my articles. It says that if Judaism is considered a religion and a race, then it opens up the possibility of Islam, Catholicism etc. also being a race. If so, why is the former defined as one more often culturally?

[–]Jackalope 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It says that if Judaism is considered a religion and a race, then it opens up the possibility of Islam, Catholicism etc. also being a race. If so, why is the former defined as one more often culturally?

I don't think Catholicism is ever in danger of being defined this way, and I have an explanation on the why.

Jewish as an ethnic group, and as a religion, are both valid concepts, but are different things - it is just an unfortunate coincidence that we use one word interchangeably like this. The ethnic Jews just managed to maintain a very homogenous religious makeup, and unlike Catholics, they don't really have missionaries trying to convert other ethnic groups to their religion. You can also have secular Jews, who are genetically jewish, and even culturally jewish, but do not follow/practice/believe in the religion.

You have ethnic Jews, and religious Jews, and there should probably be different words for these groups despite any significant overlap. However, there are few enough non-ethnic-Jews practicing this religion that this distinction isn't that relevant in many cases, and people just ignore the issue of secular Judaism by treating culture and religion as the same thing. Criticisms of Jews often conflate these things, and I think any serious discussion on this topic needs to be clear whether it is criticizing a genealogy, a religion, or a culture.

[–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Now that makes snse. Of course whoever does bring this up is missing it. Although, what about their classification in America and about those from other races practicing Judaism? While they were let in and granted citizenship in the 19th and 20th centuries, I am not sure if they were documented as White or as to how they would get in if they weren't.

[–]Jackalope 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Although, what about their classification in America

I am not sure if they were documented as White or as to how they would get in if they weren't.

Yeah...you bring up an interesting issue here as Whoopi Goldberg found out recently, lol. I think this issue is complicated by the fact that Jews often look somewhat white i.e. can pass for it. Even consider an 'Octaroon' like Megan Markle: you can tell she isn't 100% white. I don't think you would be able to identify an 'Octajew' by sight the same way.

The genetic origins of the Jews are somewhat contested, but I do have some thoughts. I don't particularly buy the Khazar origins theory, it doesn't seem well substantiated. The theory that seems most likely to me is supported by studies that looked at different Jewish groups. Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, and Sephardic. While these groups are heterogenous, they all have some common heritage that appears to derive from ancient Iranian peoples, but mixed with different groups as the migrated. This seems plausible, and explains the Middle Eastern origins, as well as the light skin coloring (Persians from Iran can also be extremely light skinned). From what I recall, the Ashkenazi Jews also have a good deal of Southern European (Presumable Italian) ancestry as well, but can't remember the composition of the other groups. I think today's Jews are very likely 'whiter' than the Jews of the past, but I would still categorize them as Middle Eastern, as this is the cultural, religious, and genetic legacy that still defines this group of people today.

[–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great ideas. But there is still a question about the converts, those mixed with other races, or even other default categories such as Ethiopian Jews which can make Jewishness less easily definable.

Meanwhile, about their White status. I heard that Jews were switched over to being deemed White in 1930, while the general American public began seeing them as White following World War II and suburbanization, where they shared communities with Whites. They also often assert that they are considered White because of 'white privilege'.