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[–]Mr_Tee[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

DAR?

[–]Mr_Tee[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

btw, when it comes to the ostplan, i personally believe it was a real plan, but not a policy perhaps, but knows?

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Why? Can you prove it? What were the details?

[–]Mr_Tee[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The actions of the Third Reich should speak for themselves, BUT, no I can't prove it.

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I appreciate the honesty. Full disclosure: I don't believe any of the GPO narratives, and if I remember the claims are not only unfounded, but conflict with each other. If you don't really care about this we can leave it be, but what actions do you think give Generalplan Ost plausibility?

[–]Mr_Tee[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, I don't really care, and I'm not so well-informed, but from the limited knowledge, I know. Things did happen. Mass killings of Slavs, particularly in Poland. Extermination through forced labor and concentration camps for the Slavic workers, and prisoners. Hungerplan where the Germans would intentionally starve the Slavs, but this goes two ways. Either the Germans needed food so they were forced to shift the focus on themselves, or they wanted the Slavs to die, and it could also be a combination. The Slavs were considered as untermensch. And then there was obviously this foreign policy where the Germans would colonize the East. I consider this is what makes the plan Ostplan credible.

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Untermensch" is a very complicated subject. For starters, Slavs are a linguistic category, not a racial one, and the Nazis were aware of this as well. Do you think they treated their Croatian, Slovak, and Ukrainian allies the same way they treated the Soviets? Of course not, and wait until you find out about Turkic, Arabic, and Indian sympathizers! Also, when the Nazis described the untermensch as a "leavening agent in all people", I think the concept was not so simple as "inferior races". The same language was used to refer to German communists, for example.

I think you laid it out well in the OP. Nazi opinions were generally divided and there was no official policy as to what was going to unfold after a German victory. You can point to harsh treatment of conquered eastern territory, I can point to the recall of ethnic Germans to the Reich territories. Why would you recall eastern Germans if you plan to send them back to colonize? Yeah, you'd be mistaken if you think Germans were not starving when their prisoners were starving, a large part of Lebensraum revolved around the fact that the Germans lacked the agricultural output to feed their population, which was a bitter memory from WW1 that reappeared in WW2. It's sad that people starved, though nowhere near as many as those that starved in the 1930s by the communists. I think that was intentional insofar as the German offensive was prioritized over the people in conquered territories, but not as an intentional plan to exterminate "untermensch". For every Himmler there was a Rosenberg, and for every Germanicist there was a "European Reich" supporter as you mentioned. I think Ostplan claims are atrocity propaganda to justify defeating the Germans after the war. You won't find any documentation outside of personal memoirs and speculation. And you can't pretend the Germans were a monolith who did not disagree on policies or future plans. In fact, if I recall, Hitler banned these speculative ideas in 1943 because they were wasting time and opportunities. Like you though, this isn't a big issue to me. You can find information on CODOH though, I'm pretty sure.

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What actions? Slavs were never killed by Germans for being slavs. The death total in the East was not due to Germany exterminating slavs. Hitler wanted to rule the East like an Empire and immigrate Germans there. Likely this subjection of the East wouldn't have worked and it would have evolved into Soviet Union structure but built on National Socialism especially if there was a Cold War with the West.

[–]ifuckredditsnitches_Resident Pajeet 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to think that policy was dumb until seeing the way Azov has been acting in this war.