Weekly Discussion Thread. 10/16/21-10/22/21.

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[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Did he believe that the decline of the west was inexorable or did he think it was possible to stop it?

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Evola was not a historical determinist, so unlike Spengler he did not hold the view that a given civilisation will always, without fail, experience decline. He believed that if a civilisation passively exhausts its energies, it will continually decline until its eventual collapse, but he also believed that decisive action can both halt and reverse decline. For example, he believed that Italian fascism raised Italy from a merchant caste nation to a warrior nation. He acknowledged that it was possible for the West to rally and raise itself, but in the post war period he became very pessimistic and considered that a highly unlikely option. He thought that successful political action was almost completely impossible and suggested that preparing to establish a new civilisation after the collapse of the current one may be a more worthwhile use of effort. I should note, however, that the course of action he suggested has nothing to do with moving to the countryside to farm and starting a family or anything else along these lines.

In short, Evola thought that the decline of the West can be stopped and that the West can even return to greatness, but only on the condition that Westerners raise themselves and their civilisation through their own efforts. He did not believe that Westerners had either the desire or the capacity to do that, however.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How does this go along with Revolt Against the Modern world? I got the impression from that book that he thought we were just in the Kali Yuga and there's nothing we can do except Ride the Tiger IE find people who still have Personality and try to preserve whatever we can until Ragnarok or whatever name you want to give the transitional period into the next age.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I haven't read all of Revolt, but I think it's a case of him examining different options best suited for different people in different books. Men Among The Ruins is basically a political manual, it's aimed at those devoted to politics in the post war period and he definitely outlines the possibility for political action and even for mass politics there, although he covers all this in less than two chapters. Ride The Tiger, on the other hand, is intended for people who in a more normal era may have preferred to be involved with politics, but who may not necessarily care to do so today. I am not sure how I would classify Revolt. There have been three different editions of Revolt, the first one published in the inter war period and the last one in the 70s, so it's a bit difficult to judge the intentions behind the book.

I think your interpretation is correct. As far as Evola was personally concerned, the Kali Yuga had to exhaust itself first before it could be ended. My understanding is that this was not a doctrinal view, however. In theory, it would be possible to reverse the decline through diligent and precise effort. Evola could not see this happening because the intellectual and moral confusion was already very great in his own time and the "current" of the Kali Yuga was only growing stronger. He still offered his analysis for political action in case there are people who want to pursue it, though. To an extent, the political course he suggests can also be synthesised with the idea of riding the tiger. One of the most major suggestions he makes is that a future political order should devise its own ascetic "subculture" and style in order to offer up an alternative, inspiring worldview to Europe and attract more high quality people to a cause and an organisation at the same time. This organisation, its prestige and the popularity of its worldview would continually grow, and eventually its leadership would intervene politically at the right time, when the West hits rock bottom and is about to collapse. Personally, I think his essay on the Beat Generation has to do with this set of ideas, so it makes for a good complementary read.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You got a link to the Beatnik essay?

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I read it from a book, I believe it was The Bow And The Club. If I recall correctly, the actual title of the essay was The Youth, The Beats, and Right-Wing Anarchists. I am pretty sure this specific essay is popular outside of the book though. You may be able to find it on Counter-Currents, since when people post Evola links, that's typically where they're from.

I went to reread the essay just now though and it's not the way I remember it. I think Evola wrote two separate essays on the Beats, so it's possible I've got the wrong one or that I was just generally mistaken. This essay looks at the Beats with the aim of discovering the meaning this type of worldview can have on a personal level, rather than examining the Beats as a movement and a symbol. The point I wanted to make earlier was that for Evola, politically the best way forward was a movement which is both a political force and a symbol. The Beats essay is good, but it does not make such an argument or even focus on offering a reference point like I thought it would.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The point I wanted to make earlier was that for Evola, politically the best way forward was a movement which is both a political force and a symbol.

So combining subcultures that represent an ideal with politics? Like Fascism with Futurism and NS with the Volkisch movement?

I've also long considered this an essential element and the alt right with fashwave, leading all online culture etc seemed to have the potential for this but nowadays it seems impossible for an organic/grassroots subculture to be mainstreamed.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So combining subcultures that represent an ideal with politics? Like Fascism with Futurism and NS with the Volkisch movement?

I think Futurism was more of an intellectual movement and Volkisch nationalism a mass movement. What I am thinking of is closer to having a group of people whose public image and style immediately brings to mind a sense of seriousness and transcendent values, similar to how seeing a monk immediately brings to mind ideas of monastic life and ascesis. I think my understanding of this idea actually comes from another one of Evola's essays, Orientations, which should definitely be on Counter-Currents.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah I see, you mean specifically an ascetic order as part of the movement. I would like to see this but I feel like it can only exist as part of a religious movement, which we don't have and which would have no mass appeal if we did anyway. I think that kind of thing doesn't have much potential today.

I think the furthest something along this line can take is simply communication between different nationalist individuals and cells/chapters to develop ideas. Maybe stuff like guys meeting to mountaineer together or other similar activities, but I can't really imagine groups of guys detaching from the world to live together communally and whatnot.

What kind of form do you think it could take today? The best I can imagine is a group that takes initiates from various nationalist organisations and requires them to pass certain tests. But what would be the ends to this? What 'esoteric' knowledge would be imparted on them? We have no religious/transcendent path for them to be dedicated to, it would just be akin to networking or being part of something that seems cool or something.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah I see, you mean specifically an ascetic order as part of the movement. I would like to see this but I feel like it can only exist as part of a religious movement, which we don't have and which would have no mass appeal if we did anyway. I think that kind of thing doesn't have much potential today.

I am not thinking of something exclusively religious, but an ascetic, anti-consumerist element would play an important role in setting such a movement apart from mass society. The new age hippies provide one possible example of mixing religious beliefs with a political lifestyle, although in their case both of those elements had a very different aim and function. Evola is also not too concerned with mass appeal. The aim of such a movement would be to build something akin to a vanguard and to keep vanguard values alive, basically. If that can be achieved, the mass appeal will come when the appropriate moment is reached. At such a moment, having a ready organisation and group of people with an established image to engage in political work is also useful.

I think the furthest something along this line can take is simply communication between different nationalist individuals and cells/chapters to develop ideas. Maybe stuff like guys meeting to mountaineer together or other similar activities, but I can't really imagine groups of guys detaching from the world to live together communally and whatnot.

That's not what I meant with the monk example, I don't think something like this could work either. My intention was to suggest that the image of a member of a political order of this type would bring to mind the same level of distinctiveness from normal life as a monk. The practical side would be very different from monastic life.

What kind of form do you think it could take today? The best I can imagine is a group that takes initiates from various nationalist organisations and requires them to pass certain tests. But what would be the ends to this? What 'esoteric' knowledge would be imparted on them? We have no religious/transcendent path for them to be dedicated to, it would just be akin to networking or being part of something that seems cool or something.

This is a very difficult question, because it depends on how responsive political activists and normies would be to something like this. I think as far as the spiritual element is concerned, Evola has already outlined several paths that could be pursued today. Some of them are more inaccessible, but others are straightforward, comparatively simple and intuitive. Regarding the other stuff, I think the most successful possible form of such an order would consist in a group oriented around spiritual, political, physical and intellectual development. How big such a group would be, or even if it is possible to establish such a group at all, would have to be established through active effort. The end product would be a hierarchical network of nonconformist communities.

[–]Nombre27 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I should note, however, that the course of action he suggested has nothing to do with moving to the countryside to farm and starting a family or anything else along these lines.

If you know, what did he suggest then? Or is your answer to this in the subsequent paragraph?

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Evola thought that since today biological continuity no longer implies spiritual continuity and that since even the children of good parents can end up becoming radlib consoomers, the priority should be to help organise, educate and prepare young people who are already oriented towards Tradition. The goal of that would be to pass down certain knowledge, values and worldview until a time when these things can serve as the basis for a new civilisation.

[–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In short, Evola thought that the decline of the West can be stopped and that the West can even return to greatness, but only on the condition that Westerners raise themselves and their civilisation through their own efforts.

He did not believe that Westerners had either the desire or the capacity to do that, however.

That is a very surprising claim. Do you have a quote of what he said specifically?

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I assume you are referring to the last line. I cannot offer you an exact quote or source, but basically Evola thought that in the post war period Westerners had exchanged the idea of great causes for cheap consumer goods and a comfortable bourgeois existence. Among those few Westerners who had still not given up on all higher interests, Evola identified another problem. This next part is something I read from Revolt Against the Modern World recently, although I can't remember the exact chapter. To paraphrase, he said that he did not think it was possible to find even a single Westerner today capable of reacting against or even fully understanding anything more than a single aspect of the modern world. There were people who reacted against consumerism or people who reacted against anti-nationalism, but there were no people who could understand and react to the full depth of the problem as a whole. Evola also had a low opinion of the forms that reaction had taken in his day, namely the publication of pamphlets and party programs. The lack of interest in the inner dimension and the lack of attempts at inner revolution doomed political reaction to a fate of transience, ineffectiveness and counter-productive integration in the world of bourgeois politics.

In other words, for Evola, the post war period presented a problem of lack of numbers, lack of interest, lack of character, lack of understanding and lack of appropriate action.