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[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

And as mentioned, they didn't fund the NSDAP so it doesn't matter.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

By not fund, you mean accept their donations right? To prevent further cratering...

According to Robert Jackson, the former Supreme Court Justice and chief U.S. prosecutor at Nuremberg, “[T]he industrialists…became so enthusiastic that they set about to raise three million Reichsmarks [worth about $30 million today] to strengthen and confirm the Nazi Party in power.”


Gustav Krupp was the first executive to speak at the Berlin meeting, and pledged one million marks. As the United Nations summarized in a 1949 report, Krupp was a key financier for the Nazi Party, including through his corporation:


At the February meeting, the I.G. Farben executives gave the Nazis 400,000 marks, and a total of 4.5 million marks by the end of 1933, according to The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. This infusion of corporate cash saved the Nazi Party from financial disaster. The rest, as they say, is history — tragic, tragic history.

If you have a source that said Hitler turned down all offers, I'm all ears for it.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

None of this is relevant to the NSDAP's building of popular support and getting into the government. This is after that was already achieved and these businesses were just trying to protect themselves. Already by this point the NSDAP were the largest party in the Reichstag.

Massive difference between giving someone who has no leverage over you money because you like them and giving money to someone who has leverage over you because you fear them.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

None of this is relevant to the NSDAP's building of popular support and getting into the government. This is after that was already achieved and these businesses were just trying to protect themselves. Already by this point the NSDAP were the largest party in the Reichstag. Massive difference between giving someone who has no leverage over you money because you like them and giving money to someone who has leverage over you because you fear them.

So one should naturally expect every Rich person would completely submit to every Socialist takeover? Even though we have examples like the Kulaks in the Soviet Union who still disagreed with how the government should control their farms with the final result ending quite violently?

Again, I think you're arguing from a point of cognitive dissonance that just because NSDAP had got to power, that their financial situation wasn't just as much of a concern without the private kickbacks to keep them going once more. Or using the excuse of "we'll just tax them when we control government" when that concept is nothing new in the political world, yet we still see parties fail for using that reason alone.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So one should naturally expect every Rich person would completely submit to every Socialist takeover?

It's either that or fleeing, yes.

Even though we have examples like the Kulaks in the Soviet Union who still disagreed with how the government should control their farms with the final result ending quite violently?

The situation is not remotely comparable. The kulaks owned small farms and violence directed against them was entirely one sided. The wealthy Ford-level capitalists had fled the USSR long before the land collectivisation campaigns.

Again, I think you're arguing from a point of cognitive dissonance that just because NSDAP had got to power, that their financial situation wasn't just as much of a concern without the private kickbacks to keep them going once more. Or using the excuse of "we'll just tax them when we control government" when that concept is nothing new in the political world, yet we still see parties fail for using that reason alone.

This is completely incoherent.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

It's either that or fleeing, yes.

Now apply this logic that says parties can get whatever funding they need by promising to tax others for it? It makes the party look extremely fickle if your source of income can always jump ship if they don't like it.

It's only because of hindsight, we saw German Industrialists stay and agree to help the NSDAP. But in any other scenario or timeline, they could have refused and we'd have to watch how Germany [could have] rebuilt differently. Or perhaps they don't rebuild at all because of the issues mentioned, and some other event or political party takes their place instead.

The situation is not remotely comparable. The kulaks owned small farms and violence directed against them was entirely one sided. The wealthy Ford-level capitalists had fled the USSR long before the land collectivisation

The only reason it's not comparable is because all the smart ones saw the writing on the wall and escaped. But if they were somehow overcome by "fear of the state having grown too big" then they would have stayed put and cooperated.

By the way, that does remind me of a video I saw that answered the question of what happened to millionaires in the Soviet Union. There was actually a small resurgence in the 1980s, but it also lead to protests and naturally, the Soviet government cracking down on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqxTqysnp2c

This is completely incoherent.

Explain which is?

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Now apply this logic that says parties can get whatever funding they need by promising to tax others for it? It makes the party look extremely fickle if your source of income can always jump ship if they don't like it.

The "source of income" doesn't jump ship, because their assets are not so easily moved. The owners can flee, in which case their assets are nationalised. Factories, raw materials, technologies, specialist staff and supply chains do not and indeed, cannot flee.

It's only because of hindsight, we saw German Industrialists stay and agree to help the NSDAP. But in any other scenario or timeline, they could have refused and we'd have to watch how Germany [could have] rebuilt differently. Or perhaps they don't rebuild at all because of the issues mentioned, and some other event or political party takes their place instead.

This is a ridiculous position to take because an authoritarian regime with the necessarily will can maintain its hold on a country indefinitely with or without "rebuilding". North Korea is a perfect example of this.

The only reason it's not comparable is because all the smart ones saw the writing on the wall and escaped. But if they were somehow overcome by "fear of the state having grown too big" then they would have stayed put and cooperated.

The reason it is not comparable is because there is a massive chasm between industrial magnates and small time private farmers. The USSR did not even necessarily need to crack down on the kulaks, but pursuing its political agenda would have been completely impossible without smashing domestic industrial capitalism. I am not even sure where we are going with this here. Your point was that the German capitalists did not have to submit to the NSDAP and therefore we can consider their donations to be voluntary rather than compelled, but the kulak example you gave provides ample demonstration that the state can obliterate private business on a whim and that these donations were basically forcibly extracted from the capitalists.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The "source of income" doesn't jump ship, because their assets are not so easily moved. The owners can flee, in which case their assets are nationalised. Factories, raw materials, technologies, specialist staff and supply chains do not and indeed, cannot flee.

Unless a Socialist takeover happens overnight, any owner could still plan ahead and sell off certain assets or even begin the relocation process. As for Specialist staff, if they're no longer being paid because the boss is no longer there, what reason do they have to stay either? Brain drain is a real phenomenon since a lot of people value work and having money over not starving.

This is a ridiculous position to take because an authoritarian regime with the necessarily will can maintain its hold on a country indefinitely with or without "rebuilding". North Korea is a perfect example of this.

That's not a great example. North Korea depended heavily on the USSR for support, and when they collapsed, they suffered a devastating famine. It also put the country on international food assistance (to which admittedly, the USA politicized and withheld certain food imports if the North Koreans didn't act a certain way).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine

In the 1980s, the Soviet Union was embarking on political and economic reform. It began demanding payment from North Korea for past and current aid – amounts North Korea could not repay. By 1991, the Soviet Union dissolved, ending all aid and trade concessions, such as cheap oil.[7] Without Soviet aid, the flow of imports to the North Korean agricultural sector ended, and the government proved too inflexible to respond.[13] Energy imports fell by 75%.[14] The economy went into a downward spiral, with imports and exports falling in tandem. Flooded coal mines required electricity to operate pumps, and the shortage of coal worsened the shortage of electricity. Agriculture reliant on electrically-powered irrigation systems, artificial fertilizers and pesticides was hit particularly hard by the economic collapse.[15][16]

North Korea's status in the world today is also based on being extremely impoverished. So you could argue Germany would still exist, but then Hitler's Germany would resemble the GDR or something less impressive.

The reason it is not comparable is because there is a massive chasm between industrial magnates and small time private farmers. The USSR did not even necessarily need to crack down on the kulaks, but pursuing its political agenda would have been completely impossible without smashing domestic industrial capitalism. I am not even sure where we are going with this here. Your point was that the German capitalists did not have to submit to the NSDAP and therefore we can consider their donations to be voluntary rather than compelled, but the kulak example you gave provides ample demonstration that the state can obliterate private business on a whim and that these donations were basically forcibly extracted from the capitalists.

It's exactly this, but it's also hindsight because the conditions were perfect where the Industrialists stayed and had no disagreements with the government. We don't have other examples to compare this to where such talks might have broken down and Hitler would have had to try something else. Maybe he could have even gone down the violent route and seize their jobs by force, but there's no telling if such hasty nationalization could have also ended in failure.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Unless a Socialist takeover happens overnight, any owner could still plan ahead and sell off certain assets or even begin the relocation process. As for Specialist staff, if they're no longer being paid because the boss is no longer there, what reason do they have to stay either? Brain drain is a real phenomenon since a lot of people value work and having money over not starving.

Selling off assets does not mean that they leave the country. You can sell a factory if you'd like, it will still be there. Nationalising factories also does not cause redundancies, I have no idea where you got that from.

That's not a great example. North Korea depended heavily on the USSR for support, and when they collapsed, they suffered a devastating famine.

Yet that didn't shake the regime at all. That's my point.

It's exactly this, but it's also hindsight because the conditions were perfect where the Industrialists stayed and had no disagreements with the government.

But that's wrong, for the exact reason I listed immediately after the bolded quote.

This is going to sound mean, but I feel that it is best to say it. We have had several conversations up until now and it seems to me that your logical reasoning is poor. I do not think that you are stupid, but your thinking is very disorganised. I recommend that you buy a good book or a set of books on the Trivium and improve your thinking skills. As things stand now, it feels exhausting and futile to talk to you.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Selling off assets does not mean that they leave the country. You can sell a factory if you'd like, it will still be there.

The building might. Everything that was inside it? It could all still be liquidated or moved somewhere else. When you see a store or warehouse shut down, the actual goods inside aren't left on the shelves. They are taken off or sold off to random buyers, in which case, have fun tracking them all down again...

Nationalising factories also does not cause redundancies, I have no idea where you got that from.

I do not see where in my post I said they caused "redundancies".

Yet that didn't shake the regime at all. That's my point.

Other than the whole starving millions of your own population part , where North Koreans today are still showing effects of malnutrition, then yeah, they kinda "weathered" it. At least for as long as they continue to be the world's bitch and have to rely on others for their food imports.

https://www.newsweek.com/north-koreas-food-supply-crisis-imports-china-drop-90-percent-1603404

But that's wrong, for the exact reason I listed immediately after the bolded quote.

Unless you have real life examples showing what Germany would have done if the Industrialists didn't go ahead with the NSDAP's plans, then I'm going to go ahead and say "no" to this.