all 72 comments

[–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (72 children)

Strictly speaking, to win the culture war we need intellectuals in tenured academic positions and in middle school. My hope is that we will be able to achieve at least a part of that during the next government, which is very likely to be shared between BoI and Lega (since 99% of our universities are public, it's not unlikely that they promote people of the ruling party). But yes, it was a very positive development. Not that much for BoI itself, which is good but still very "conservative" in the pejorative meaning, but because the political discourse is much more welcoming for identitarian ideas.

Edit: what really impressed me is that, while a few years ago nationalism was a semi-taboo, nowadays you are able to find people expressing very nationalist ideas basically everywhere: in the shops, in the bars, even in the geek community, which used to be very left leaning.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you Italian?

[–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yups. Edit: i'm also a long-time militant of the BoI.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Based.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (66 children)

we need intellectuals in tenured academic positions and in middle school.

There haven't been, nor will there be, fascist intellectuals

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

The Nuremberg Defendants had certified IQs of 106 to 143.

https://historyofyesterday.com/the-results-of-the-nazi-iq-tests-c3a5e442f37c

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Many with high IQs are not intellectuals. There are also intellectuals who don't have very high IQs. Definitions:

: given to study, reflection, and speculation

: engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect source

[the use of one's knowledge and understanding in a thoughtful manner]

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

: engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect

Albert Speer was an Architect. Karl Donitz was an Admiral and also the last head of state of Nazi Germany.

I've also never heard of a Low IQ intellectual before. Someone who is borderline retarded isn't fit for any of the jobs that put it to the great use.

See this chart:

https://i.imgur.com/W0AyRdz.png

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I said:

There are also intellectuals who don't have very high IQs.

Speer and Donitz were obviously smart and accomplished, but not intellectuals. Intelligence and accomplishments are not always associated with understanding or the way in which one uses one's knowledge. This is a common discussion in artificial intelligence research. For example, can one program AI code so that a computer can be an intellectual? No.

For example, one of the key principles in Fasicm is that the ends justify the means; something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with (the ends are justified particularly when the means to those ends are justified).

We can discuss Speer and his work, if that will help.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Speer and Donitz were obviously smart and accomplished, but not intellectuals. Intelligence and accomplishments are not always associated with understanding or the way in which one uses one's knowledge.

WTF? Your own definition says "engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect". What do you think an Architect does, if not for combining creativity with their own intelligence?

One prime example is Speer helped designed the model city Germania. You're saying that was not the job of an intellectual?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(city)

For example, one of the key principles in Fasicm is that the ends justify the means; something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with (the ends are justified particularly when the means to those ends are justified).

Says who? Seems like you're applying your own bias since I don't register that statement as being neither true or false.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Its so utterly infuriating to listen to this mediocre midwit sit there and get into nauseating disputes about what a true 'intellectual' really is. The arrogance of the 115-120 IQ person and their lack of ability to understand just how much their opinions are mere reflections of fashionable and accepted thought and not some brilliant insight they've come to never ceases to amaze me.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Rather than focus on attacking strangers online, try to develop your own thoughts. That is literally what Saidit guidelines ask you to do. What you say here is pathetic and infantile.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yes - though how intellectual was the model for Germania? I've been very interested in Speer's work, and especially Germania, but this model - which is a museum in Berlin - offers mainly a larger version of what French architects had already worked with. Speer's neoclassical approaches were essentially copies. Not to dismiss Speer as a copy-cat who merely made strucures larger (see also Boullée's Cenotaph for Newton), but that Speer's approaches were not particularly intellectual. One can work as an architect without being an intellectual. Speer had likely seen his work as intellectual, however., per the German context of his profession. That said, Nazi policy was to severely limit academics and intellectuals. For intellectuals like the architects at Bauhause, they were fired or replaced by members of the Nazi party. Fasicsts historically limit and prosecute intellectuals and academics. This is well known. It's also the reason that none of Speer's work borrows from Bauhause lessons, and is instead rather neoclassical.

      Regarding Fascism and statecraft, one has to look at three texts by Machiavelli to appreciate the authoritarian origins of Fascism. Perhaps I shouldn't explain here a course on modern statecraft and political thought, which would begin with Machiavelli, and extend to Rousseau, Hegel, Marx and others. The origins of Fascism are Machiavellian (I'm not using an 'evil' connotation here), ragarding the absolute control of the masses, part of which is that the "ends justify the means". This is not an intellectual concept, as it's essentially a renewal of Roman imperial policies.

      [–]Chipit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Many of the SJW left agree that the ends justify the means. It is a founding principle of critical theory. The people who wrote it are all intellectuals.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      There is nothing intellectual about the political approach of "the ends justify the means."

      [–]Chipit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Sure there is! Respected intellectuals on the left do it all the time.

      [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with

      You can't be serious.

      [–]aukofthecovenantWhite man with eyes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      For example, one of the key principles in Fasicm is that the ends justify the means; something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with (the ends are justified particularly when the means to those ends are justified).

      Intellectuals do not stipulate what other intellectuals must agree with. To an actual thinking human, the question is always "do these ends justify these means?", about which reasonable people might disagree.

      [–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      For example, one of the key principles in Fasicm is that the ends justify the means; something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with (the ends are justified particularly when the means to those ends are justified).

      Do you know how many western intellectuals used that type of thinking to justify soviet actions in the 20th century especially during the early period? I can list half a dozen I personally knew at school who use the same logic TODAY. You're not an authority on intellectualism, mate.

      You just constantly talk out of your ass and make these statements. You haven't got a fucking clue. Maybe if you listened to people for five minutes you'd actually expand your horizons and not constantly say utterly stupid things like you're some authority on the topic. It's embarrassing.

      Others have come up with some good lists of fascist thinkers bit ill add another: Ezra Pound. Greatest poet of his day, mentor to Joyce, Eliot and Hemingway. A brilliant man who was probably one of the most influential artists of the early 20th century and a FASCIST.

      Sad thing for me is that I seem to recall you're involved in education which is so maddening. You a small and largely ignorant little man in charge of setting kids out on their intellectual journey. That's a tragedy.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      So your response is mainly to insult me?

      I've responded to your concerns elsewhere in the thread.

      Yes, Ezra Pound was an intellectual who supported fascists, but the so-called intellectual content of his fascist approaches was idiotic and misguided, (though he was a good writer on other matters), and not as much in line with much of the prevailing fascist political theory and statecraft of his day. He was right about the problems with Jewish 'usery'. For example, one of his idiotic contributions:

      I am not anti-Semitic, and I distinguish between the Jewish usurer and the Jew who does an honest day's work for a living.

      Hitler and Mussolini were simple men from the country. I think that Hitler was a Saint, and wanted nothing for himself. I think that he was fooled into anti-Semitism and it ruined him. That was his mistake. When you see the "mess" that Italy gets into by bumping off Mussolini, you will see why someone could believe in some of his efforts. source

      None of this is reliable fascist intellectualism, and would not work well in political discourses.

      [–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Ahh yes your source is an isolated quote from Wikipedia. That's where all the intellectuals get their info.

      BTW I'd say exactly the same thing. I'm not anti-Semitic I have problems with certain Jews and how they behave.

      So your response is mainly to insult me?

      Yes.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      So you not only reject Saidit's guidelines, you also have no real interest in a discussion, or to understand anything, or to think about anything that has more depth than a pet rock or a gnat in heat.

      [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      There are also intellectuals who don't have very high IQs.

      Yeah, the kind who run most of our institutions. Midwit bugmen.

      [–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      There were many. 2 of the most important philosophers of the 20th century are Carl Schmitt and Heidegger, both were members of the National Socialist party in Germany.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      I had forgotten about Heidegger. He was not outspoken about Fascism, a problem addressed recently by Adam Knowles, among others.

      [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Just admit there were brilliant fascist intellectuals. Admit that you're wrong.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      So now you're stalking all of my comments? While you're doing that, read the comments that provide assessments of the anti-intellectualism of fascist discourses. Also, read about the reasons for Heidegger's reticence regarding fascism. Many intellectuals were sent to prison by fascists and communists.

      [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      anti-intellectualism of fascist discourses

      I simply reject that assertion.

      Many intellectuals were sent to prison by fascists and communists.

      So? That's a good thing. You're supposed to remove your enemies.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      | Many intellectuals were sent to prison by fascists and communists.

      So? That's a good thing. You're supposed to remove your enemies.

      OK genius - why are intellectuals automatically considered enemies in those contexts? If you LOVE authoritarian rule so much, consider that those assholes would never have allowed you enough time to argue with me on Saidit. Moreover, your ethnocracy would discover that your grandmother's DNA includes that of an African slave, and they would send you to the gas chambers.

      [–]Chipit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

      Giovanni Gentile disagrees!

      There are a whole slew of fascist intellectuals. All forgotten today in favor of a cartoon version of fascism. Remember, it was the modern offshoot of socialism for decades. It was taken quite seriously and Mussolini in his time was regarded as a genius. Cole Porter wrote a hit song about him!

      http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm a quick history of fascist intellectuals. Recommend this link be shared everywhere!

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        But...intellectuals were overrepresented in the gulags. Commoners were no threat to the elites. But thinking people who could start movements or organize people? A deadly threat.

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Mussolini was actually an excellent writer. Hitler not so much.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

        Thanks.

        Part of my answer to this I offered in the thread, here.

        There is a useful book on this problem, here

        Here is part of the summary:

        Fascism has traditionally been characterized as irrational and anti-intellectual, finding expression exclusively as a cluster of myths, emotions, instincts, and hatreds. This intellectual history of Italian Fascism — the product of four decades of work by one of the leading experts on the subject in the English-speaking world — provides an alternative account. A. James Gregor argues that Italian Fascism may have been a flawed system of belief, but it was neither more nor less irrational than other revolutionary ideologies of the twentieth century. Gregor makes this case by presenting for the first time a chronological account of the major intellectual figures of Italian Fascism, tracing how the movement’s ideas evolved in response to social and political developments inside and outside of Italy.

        I of course disagree with Gregor, especially because we have to look at Fascism in practice, rather than the apologists' comments or initial ideas. In practice, Fascists have focused on limiting, persecuting, and/or killing academics and intellectuals. Political thought is dangerous to Fascists because it exposes the abusive, rhetorical and logical fallacies of fascist movements.

        [–]Chipit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

        Yeah, I get it: you re-define fascism to mean "anything I don't like". Moreover intellectuals are "those good guys that I like, because intelligence is more important than anything." Has nothing to do with actual fascism as esposed by Gentile and the many other intellectuals of the movement.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

        No, Chipit, I'm not making this about me. I gave you useful information.

        [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        You have some bizarre mental fixation that "fascists can't be intellectuals because I like intellectuals and identify with them because I am so S-M-R-T." Yes, there were fascist intellectuals. You know fascism is like 90% socialism, right?

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

        Why do you and others care so much about who I am or who I seem to be? Can't I just post a comment? I didn't comment on what I want or how smart I might think I am. And why do some Saiditors insist on redefining fascism? Fascism is the authoritarian manipulation of the 99% by a small group of political leaders. Socialism and Communism are both very different, giving the 99% much more control over their production. Fascists do not want the 99% to control what happens to their production. In fact quite the opposite. And as you know, fascists don't want intellectuals to cause problems in the 99%. To your point: were those who arranged these fascist policies and approaches themselves "intellectuals" of the the fascist movements? Perhaps they thought of themselves as such, but one can certainly argue that what they were doing was not intellectual. Fascism has been about control, not about understanding.

        [–]Chipit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        So...you get to define fascism, instead of the fascists. Fascinating. So fascism is whatever you say it is. That's quite useful.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Did I say that?

        Simply search for:

        fascism definition

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Socialism and Communism are both very different, giving the 99% much more control over their production.

        You have to be joking. Under fascism people could still start their own business.

        Fascists do not want the 99% to control what happens to their production.

        Nobody genuinely wants this. The masses are stupid.

        And as you know, fascists don't want intellectuals to cause problems in the 99%.

        Just like communists and liberals.

        By the way, the 99% doesn't exist. It's a tired Occupy term that doesn't mean anything.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        None of this effectively negates what I wrote, other than the make-believe concept that the "99% doesn't exist." Consider the context.

        [–]skeech 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Occupy was a mix of homeless and meth addicts.. i was at one of their camps in california for a couple of months, observing.. they never had any food.. they were so unhappy with the government, but they would beg for their food.. from the people that work for the government..

        one time, they raised up about $2k and one of the campers stole it and went on a meth binge..

        heil occupy!!!!!!!

        [–]skeech 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        fascists can't be intellectuals

        ted bundy was a rather charming intellectual.

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        This list alone disproves that absurd notion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_the_Fascist_Intellectuals

        And that's just Italy. Germany had its Conservative Revolution. Nazi thinkers like Martin Heidegger and Carl Schmitt are some of the most influential intellectuals of all time. I mean, you can even call Friedrich Nietzsche a protofascist thinker.

        Anyway, not even Jewish liberals like Ronald Beiner will ever say something as stupid as what you just said.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        There's no need to insult me, Ethnocrat. (Not very intellectual of you.)

        I hadn't seen this when I responded to Chipit, and my responses to him are similar to my responses to your comment:

        https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/89jk/success_of_farright_brothers_of_italy_raises/uows

        Nietzsche's sister edited some of his texts in a manner that make some of them appear to be proto-fascist. A broader reading of Nietzsche's texts show that he was against the basic principles of fascism, as it creates a slave mentality among the masses, who would also no longer follow God (hence God was 'dead', or rather not present in German society when Nietzsche wrote about his concerns). He absolutely did not want the master/slave state that fascism would create.

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        There's no need to insult me, Ethnocrat.

        Then stop being such a moron.

        As far as Nietzsche is concerned, I never read his sister's edited texts. A broader reading of Nietzsche shows he was absolutely a major influence on fascist thinkers. Don't take it from me. Take it from Jewish liberal political scientists like Ronald Beiner, who wrote an entire book on it: https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Minds-Nietzsche-Heidegger-Return/dp/0812250591

        And Nietzsche wasn't against creating a slave mentality among the masses. His argument was that the masses will always have a slave mentality, which is why they should never be in charge and need superior men to inspire them. That's exactly what fascism is all about. If you want to give a Nietzschean critique of fascism you should focus on the role of the state and jingoism. That's where Nietzsche would have a problem with fascism. In fact, one of the best Nietzschean critiques of fascism ever written is Fascism Viewed from the Right by Julius Evola. How about you actually read what these people wrote instead of taking your ques from your fellow Reddit bugmen.

        By the way, Nietzsche didn't want people to follow God. He wanted us to overcome the "death of God". Not by descending into nihilism, but by creating our own meaning in life. Fascism was an attempt at doing just that.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

        Then stop being such a moron.

        So you want to enjoy insulting people, while being utterly confused about etic vs emic assessments of Nietzsche. Read his work, rather than approaches to his work, or continue with the slave mentality that you have in this case. (He would not have agreed with the Fascists.)

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Read his work, rather than approaches to his work

        I have read his work. You clearly haven't.

        or continue with the slave mentality that you have in this case.

        Oh boy, the irony.

        He would not have agreed with the Fascists

        I called him a protofascist thinker. You need to read my comments.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Proto-fascists, or also proto-German fascists, who did not appreciate that their interests would lead to the totalitarian uniformity and authoritarian policies of the kind in ancient Rome or in Machiavelli's writings were themselves merely not mentioning it or were idiots. Nietzsche was not this kind of extremist. He valued individualism, but also favored hierarchical political structures. Sometimes his approaches to politics are called "anti-democratic liberalism", and were much more balanced than fascists (or some of the Jewish biographers) would want us to believe.

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        D'Annunzio, Marinetti, Cantimori, Gentile, just to name a few.

        Edit: nowadays there are also Gervasoni, Buttafuoco, Fusaro, for example. All of them are academics or broadly-known mainstream tier writers. Pennacchi just died unfortunately. Anyway, we just need more.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

        These are Italo-centric apologists who've not appropriately addressed what happens in practice with fascism, when the academics and intellectuals are persecuted. They want to sugar-coat and revise the understanding of the actual abuses against intellectuals by fascists. Much of my response is also here:

        https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/89jk/success_of_farright_brothers_of_italy_raises/uows

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

        I find your commitment to establishing a debate commendable, but specifically you have taken refuge in formulas of circular reasoning that cannot be falsified. Given your definition, anyone who is a fascist ipso facto ceases to be an intellectual, and fascism itself rejects intellectuals, and therefore you conclude that fascist intellectuals cannot exist despite the fact that they existed and still exist. I would have assumed that such an acute person as you would not be fooled by such a blatant logical fallacy. Moreover, I myself am an academic researcher, which I suppose puts me in the bizarre condition of not existing, because i'm also an identitarian.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        Thanks - though if we can put aside political philosophy for a second (if you wish to insist that I "have taken refuge in formulas of circular reasoning"), consider what has happened to academics and intellectuals under fascist rule, and indeed under other forms of autocratic and authoritarian rule. (I think we also don't want to talk about ourselves, as our arguments and evidence should be sufficient.) Someone who follows this authoritarianism - if that person considers himself/herself an 'intellectual' - has however not seriously engaged in an intellectual assessment of the modes and consequences of the authoritarian regime, which is actively against intellectuals and academics and other thinkers. It's always been essential for fascists and similar authoritarian groups to limit, reduce and kill intellectuals. Thus, why would intellectuals support a political philosophy that calls for their own mistreatment and loss of life? One could argue that nihilists have done this for ages, but this is a ridiculous minority, potentially with mental health issues. But I digress....

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        last month I had to publish an article I've been working on since last December about the Counter-Reformation. The article underwent a preliminary censorship in which I was forced to remove all definite articles, which in my language are gendered. Subsequently I presented the work at a conference, after which I was asked to eliminate all references to a possible anti-imperialist role played by the very first Roman inquisition during the affirmation of Spanish hegemony. Only at this point was the article accepted. I doubt that an Identitarian state would impose greater constraints on my freedom of scientific research.

        Edit: i just read that you said "i think we don't want to talk about ourselves". Honestly i'm not that much concerned, my political affiliation is not illegal nor obscure. In any case, returning to general arguments: the absolute majority of Italian intellectuals, even anti-fascists, continued their activity normally during fascism. Benedetto Croce was even allowed to become the international voice of anti-fascism. The only one who perhaps suffered unfair treatment was Gramsci, who was imprisoned, although the Duce personally ensured that he was treated with every respect. But Gramsci was virulently opposed to the regime, and frankly, the American McCarthyists, exponents of liberal democracy, have done worse.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        Yes - there is a tyranny of the left in academia, which is exhausting. I am curious about this anti-imperialist aspect of the first Roman inquisition, though perhsps should not continue to bother you. Another word we're also to use now for the Counter-Reformation is: Catholic Reformation.

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        In Italy the category of Catholic Reformation was cancelled a few years ago. That's mainly because it's considered an apologetic term from the Jedin's school, and also because Massimo Firpo, the most important scholar in the field, personally hates it. Other terms like "early modern catholicism" are also despised because they're linked to the anglosaxon historiography, which is reguarded to be too much neutral about the role of the Church. About the anti-imperialist role of the inquisition, isn't even new: you can find some early references in "Gui, La Riforma nei circoli nobiliari, Cinquant'anni di storiografia italiana sulla riforma, Claudiana, Torino, pp. 115-116".

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        It's interesting that Massimo Firpo and Francesco Gui still support these approaches, in light of a much greater trend in academia to offer global courses that address early modern European expansion/imperialist ambitions and the associated post-colonial concerns. I recall that Luigi Firpo's work is still used in early modern syllabi reading lists. I had also thought M. Firpo and F. Gui had retired, or were close to retirement.

        Trends in approaches to European expansion are currently led by Sanjay Subrahmanyam and similar scholars who've provided alternative assessments to the traditional Eurocentric global history. To see for example Goa initially (1510-1640) as the "Rome of the East" is one of those Jesuit proposals that agreed with Portuguese interests to trade with India, and 16th century HRE interests to exploit the New World, African and Eastern territories for goods and materials. These developments are traditionally read as imperialist, though I would think financial interests were much more important than we might read in Jesuit discourses or in developments of statecraft. Not that I have much to say about any of this, but I'll think more about this anti-imperialist role that you mention, as this may help refocus (or the new word: re-hyphenate) attention away from traditional imperialist arguments.

        [–]EthnocratArcheofuturist[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        You can say the same thing about communism. All intellectuals who weren't communists were persecuted. Ever heard of the Khmer Rouge? In fact, you can say the same thing about liberalism as well. All anti-liberal intellectuals - especially those on the right - have their careers ruined by the liberal academic establishment. It's true that liberalism doesn't use the hard political totalitarianism of communism or fascism, but it uses a soft cultural totalitarianism through political correctness, cancel culture, and manufacturing consent. Free inquiry doesn't exist anywhere. Not under communism, fascism, or liberalism. It has always been an Enlightenment myth.

        [–]CircumsteinRabbi Circumstein 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Adherence to an ideology that you don't like doesn't preclude a person from being anything. Which is, of course, all that your opposition to the idea of a 'fascist intellectual' actually comes from, i.e. fascism is 'dumb' and 'anti-intellectual' because it's against my 'values'.

        The hilarious thing, of course, is that fascists are vastly intellectually superior to the likes of yourself, as evidenced by the average Nuremberg IQ. That is to say that your opposition to fascism comes from intellectual and moral inferiority. You oppose it because you know you wouldn't fit in to any society with a high moral standard. You want to justify filth and sludge, which is why you're drawn to Leftism.

        Your reasoning on this is, as a consequence, totally incoherent. For example, you write below:

        For example, one of the key principles in [Fascism] is that the ends justify the means; something an intellectual would prima facie disagree with (the ends are justified particularly when the means to those ends are justified).

        Yeah? Guess what? Marxism is also consequentialist, but you wouldn't deny the existence of Marxist intellectuals, would you, now? Why? Because their 'values' or 'ends' don't contradict yours.

        You just got BTFO'd by the unintended consequences of your own reasoning.

        Just admit it, you think that only people who share your 'values' can be intellectual.

        You're missing an 'ab' in front of your tag, you obvious pseudo-historian and general lowlife.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        [–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Is Brothers of Italy legit or are they zionists who'll let in a horde of immigrants legally?

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Won't let the immigrants in and will defend the jus sanguinis to death, but the party itself is neutral reguarding Israel. I'm more concerned about economical policies, because the leadership is trying to appeal the middle class.

        Edit: I must point out that Italy is different from USA. We don't have a Jewish lobby, the ADL or really anything like that. We don't support Israel by default as the United States do. I don't know if we recognize Gerusalem as Israel capital (I recently saw something about that but I wasn't interested), but we didn't for a very long time. We don't have Jews politicians or industrials really. Zionism is not a compelling issue here. Americanism is.

        [–]Richard_Parker 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Fascist revival? Sounds good to me!

        [–]CircumsteinRabbi Circumstein 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Ah, yes, the website that disables comments on practically all articles, calls itself 'independent' and begs for donations.

        This article is just deranged fearmongering. Fascism was actually very left-wing for the time period (Italian fascists supported universal suffrage while the mainstream didn't, and were republicans, though they later came to a compromise with the King in which the King still retained numerous powers, including the power to formally depose Mussolini). It's one of several reasons why I don't consider myself a fan. Heidegger also came to dislike fascism for that same reason (too left-wing, still too tied to modernity/Gesellschaften, etc.) These are the reasons for which Evola never identified as 'fascist', and only used that term 'super-fascist' in gest, i.e. as if to say that the actual fascists were a bunch of cucks.

        As for Italy shifting rightward more generally? Great.

        Left-wing tears and fears about it? Even greater.

        [–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        there's a long time struggle within the party between the leftish side and rightish side. It was yet present in 1946. But it's not that streamlined as you may think. Pino Rauti, who was the main pupil of Evola, ended up with an economically left-wing platform when he managed to get the leadership of the party. Also, most of the active base is economically leftish, even if at various degrees. I'm probably very extreme within the party, because I come from the "national socialism" in-party group, which in Italian doesn't sounds like national socialism (it's "socialismo nazionale" instead of "nazionalsocialismo"). We were advocating a platform based on the socialization of every enterprise with more than 100 employees, and a straight nationalization of every strategic and essential ones. But we were also advocating for corporatism and a more strict jus sanguinis, border control etc. So we were both the more leftish and the more rightish of the party, with the national-conservatives beeing more moderate on every point.

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        This is very interesting. Italian politics is so complicated. I know many Italians, all of whom seem to have different political points of view. At the end of the day, it seems they all want stability, which would mean a reduction in crime, immigration, and corruption.