Hitler is ok. (actually he's really cool)

submitted by send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist from self.debatealtright

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[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

What about Mussolini or Francisco Franco?

Both leaders were Fascists or Fascist adjacent, but their legacy did not actually leave their nations in ruin, or even disrupt the ethnic balance that already existed in Europe.

Even Franco sent his own soldiers to fight the USSR and yet Spain wasn't really punished for this by the end of the war.

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Germany was left in ruin because it was bombed in campaigns organized to completely eradicate cities, like Hamburg, Dresden, and especially Königsberg, which literally doesn't exist anymore. Hitler did not do that, the Soviets and the Allies did. There was also no ethnic balance in Europe otherwise WW2 wouldn't have happened, come on now.

Also, Corneliu Codreanu>Mussolini>Franco

[–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Codreanu was extremely based. It's unfortunate that he was murdered by the King and replaced by a spineless, traitorous opportunist like Antonescu, he could have made Romania a top-of-the-line nation.

[–]CircumsteinRabbi Circumstein 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Amusingly, fascism was so popular in Romania at the time that even the degenerate playboy King Carol II and those around him were forced to imitate its symbolism. Supposedly the monarchy even used the Romano Saluto and all. It is a classic example of how establishment forces pay lip service to Right-wing values such as tradition, morality and nationalism in order to ward off threats from actual traditionalists, moralists and nationalists. Interestingly, Codreanu actually knew well the academic A. C. Cuza, whose party Codreanu and his close friends help to found before they left to form the Legion, and yet was later merged with the establishment forces to help consolidate Carol's reign.

Codreanu and the Legion attacked this decadent regime, who were far too corrupt to sincerely embrace any of these things, from the Right. Eventually it was the extreme-Left who got control of Romania, with the help of the USSR. But even Ceausescu had to co-opt these powerful forces since he could not crush them outright, leading to something resembling 'National Bolshevism'. You can also see similar nationalism-communism hybrids in neighbouring countries, such as Todor Zhivkov's Bulgaria, which actually deported much of its Turkish minority left over from Ottoman times to Turkey.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he could have made Romania a top-of-the-line nation.

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Romania has been everyone's bitch since ancient Rome. Where do you think the name Romania comes from?

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

The difference is he kept Germany fighting, even when the odds of any victory was 0. Japan was in the exact same position, where nuclear bombs would have kept falling until they came to the peace table. It would be Tojo's fault if a 3rd or 4th nuke had fallen if he gave orders to keep fighting instead of surrender.

There was also no ethnic balance in Europe otherwise WW2 wouldn't have happened, come on now.

I'm unaware of what ethnic issues existed in Spain or Italy. Spain fought a civil war, but it's not like they had to invade France and the rest of Europe to keep the majority of Spain as Spanish.

Mussolini was definitely Imperialist with his Africa campaigns, but it had less to do with racial conflicts in his own country and more to do with empire building.

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I understand now. However, Italy and Spain also didn't have large diaspora populations scattered across Europe like Germany. Arguably Italy had some, but large amounts of Germans were in foreign lands and, in the case of countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia, were being persecuted. These are not issues Spain ever had to face, so the comparison is not fair.

Also, I'm not really sure if surrendering would have mattered. The depopulation of Germans in eastern Europe happened after ww2 anyway, and plenty of lands were demographically replaced after Germany had been neutralized. If for some reason you believe things would have been easier if the Nazis surrendered earlier, there is really no proof of that. Nothing stopped the RAF from decimating cities with the intention of burning out the German identity. Nothing stopped the Russians from ethnic cleansing Prussia. That was a war waged to pacify the Germans, and they could have bent over and taken it or fought to the end, the result would be the same.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understand now. However, Italy and Spain also didn't have large diaspora populations scattered across Europe like Germany. Arguably Italy had some, but large amounts of Germans were in foreign lands and, in the case of countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia, were being persecuted. These are not issues Spain ever had to face, so the comparison is not fair.

What are Germans doing in foreign countries, and why not return home if they didn't like being there? If Hitler wanted to unite them, he already had other means of doing so, like Austria voting to unite with Germany. But if you're going to bomb every country because one of your guys happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time then no, that's BS.

If for some reason you believe things would have been easier if the Nazis surrendered earlier, there is really no proof of that.

Churchill at least wanted to go to war with the Soviets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

It makes no sense why would the Allies waste their resources on a country that's already beaten, when they can move on with the next agenda.

If anything, Germany surrendering after 5 years fucked that up. Everyone was exhausted by that point, and the Soviets now had control of several Eastern European countries, including half of Germany.

[–]nordmannenLegionnaire 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you serious? Some of it was because of Versailles, some of it was because of the HRE, frankly by 1933 it didn't matter, these were populations that existed for hundreds of years and were as tied to their land as the countries that ruled over them. Was it Germany's fault that Versailles cut away large amounts of Germans from their country? Was it Germany's fault that the collapse of Austro-Hungary didn't lead to an immediate plebiscite and/or mass exodus? I refuse to believe this is a real argument.

Capitalists will always turn on their allies whenever the time is right, nothing is new or surprising there. It doesn't change the fact that the RAF bombed with the intention to remove cultural identity. Explain why they leveled Königsberg, and why no city, even Leningrad, did not receive a similar treatment.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you serious? Some of it was because of Versailles, some of it was because of the HRE, frankly by 1933 it didn't matter, these were populations that existed for hundreds of years and were as tied to their land as the countries that ruled over them. Was it Germany's fault that Versailles cut away large amounts of Germans from their country? Was it Germany's fault that the collapse of Austro-Hungary didn't lead to an immediate plebiscite and/or mass exodus? I refuse to believe this is a real argument.

You need to be pragmatic. Borders change all the time, and as long as an actual German homeland exists, they would have infinitely been better off moving back there than being a minority somewhere else. Living somewhere for a hundred years is not an excuse.

Ever heard of magic dirt? Germany only exists because ethnic Germans live together.

Capitalists will always turn on their allies whenever the time is right, nothing is new or surprising there.

Then Germany surrendering would have made that a reality much sooner, rather than later.

Explain why they leveled Königsberg, and why no city, even Leningrad, did not receive a similar treatment.

Because every side back then was ruthless? I never claimed otherwise.

What I don't claim is Britain would waste their bombs on a country that has already surrendered to them. A new German leader would have been installed and ironically enough, they would be sent to fight Russia anyway as part of a new Western Coalition. Missed opportunity if you ask me.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hitler didn't leave his nation in ruin. War did that. Hitler did not want war. The Rothschild controlled countries wanted war.

[–]weavilsatemyface 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Hitler did not want war.

For fucks sake, Hitler was constantly going on about how war made a nation strong, that peace was for the weak.

If you believe that "Hitler did not want war" you probably believe that Epstein killed himself, Saddam Hussein had nuclear bombs, the 2020 American presidential election was the fairest and most secure in all of history, it's only "a few bad apples" among the police that are abusive, Elliot Page is a man, and the Covid-19 virus has nothing to do with the Wuhan lab.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

By 1944, Operation Bagration was a success and Germany had no chance at capturing the Russian oil fields they desperately needed. The Western Allies also manage to liberate France and would have launched a similar invasion into Germany.

Surrender should have been on the table at that point to spare further suffering, and even Germany's military command were dissatisfied at Hitler's failure's to turn the war around, hence why he was nearly assassinated in the July plot.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

By 1944, Operation Bagration was a success and Germany had no chance at capturing the oil fields they desperately needed.

The war was probably lost even before that (oil and air superiority defined that war). Hitler should have wiped out the English at Dunkirk but he was too compassionate toward his fellow Europeans. Compassion needs suspended during war. Many of Hitler's generals knew that but Hitler ignored them.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, he was counting on some degree of honor from his counterparts. Oh, how wrong he was. Especially with the Churchill sack-o-shit.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hitler should have wiped out the English at Dunkirk but he was too compassionate toward his fellow Europeans.

"His fellow Europeans", what a wanker.

Hitler didn't want to hammer the English at that time because he thought that Britain and America would change sides and ally themselves with Germany against the rest of Europe. He had this fantasy of unifying all of the Germanic peoples of Europe into Greater Germany, except for two groups: Britain, which would remain independent, and north Italian Germans, who would remain in Italy as a reward for Mussolini.

To the day he died, he never understood how the Americans and British didn't take his side. Talk about a delusional fool.

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Allies weren't going to allow Germany to surrender and keep sovereignty.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine if every country made that claim.

"I don't want to surrender because I might lose!"

"But I'm still going to launch missiles at your cities and torture your POW's".

We would still be stuck in the stone ages.