Average IQ of Native Americans without admixture?

submitted by SoylentCapitalist from self.debatealtright

The only source I found was this:

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1934-00478-001

It says their average IQ is about 80 for Alaskan natives, on par with Africans. I assume the average IQ for natives in South America would be even lower then. The drawing IQ test gave them closer to 90, however the drawing one is inaccurate and even West Africans have scored 90 on it.

Does anyone have a better source?

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[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'll take Amerindians over blacks any day of the week.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

America is theirs, first and foremost, so I agree. Nationalism was something they were all about, until someone started trading them whiskey.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

85-90

Chapter 12, Pages 101-103

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

pretty hard to make a call on that one, due to extensive cultural differences invalidating the IQ testing protocol.

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Actually there's good evidence that on IQ tests with a higher cultural load -- yes, amazingly, people who test these things have thought about cultural differences being an explanation for varied results and attempted to quantify the cultural component in different tests -- the gap between different groups narrows not widens leading one to think that this is not an explanation for what we see with IQ testing. (See Rushton and other for the evidence on that.)

Also if this were some kind of explanation then you'd have to come up with -- and YOU CAN'T -- an explanation for why the IQ test designed by Europeans time and time again finds that NE Asians have higher avg IQ's than Whites.

The tests are rigorous, replicable and sound. They're nearly the only part of psychology that is -- that's not my opinion it's Steven Pinker's. Yet this, of all things, is repeated by IQ denialists despite having been disproven a million times only to come back like some monster in a horror film you think is dead.

Exactly what cultural bias do you think, for instance, is part of the Raven's Progressive Matrices section which is common in IQ tests?

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

so, you've started out with sarcasm, and then a bit of patronising.

I you want to have a straight up debate about this most interesting of subjects, then I'm fully up for it, but you'll have to agree to drop the condescending crap and talk to me as an equal. I don't have time to play the 'throw insults' game, its all used up on another user at the moment.

We can talk spearmann's rank correlation coefficient and g all day long

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

drop the condescending crap and talk to me as an equal

Don't say stupid shit then about cultural differences 'invalidating' IQ tests. That's a pathetic, denialist lie.

We can talk spearmann's rank correlation coefficient and g all day long

I'd rather eat glass. Though I'm sure you'll find many who want to discuss this at length here.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

ok, glad I checked before bothering to waste my time. I obviously triggered you by suggesting that cultural differences can matter - something those geniuses who create the IQ tests have studied at length in order to produce culturally neutral tests.

I get that you've assumed I'm a liberal "race is a social construct; moron, but you are wrong. And ignorant, and forever will be, catch you never.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you want to have a thread on IQ or g then you should make a post

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Because I don't think they're 'arbitrary' which is a standard retard IQ denialist line. I think they're a pretty good measure of raw cognitive ability and also it doesn't matter to me if IQ tests prove Ashkenazi Jews or NE Asians are on average higher IQ than Whites. That's not the point and it's probably a good habit to not just dismiss things that are true but add complication to your own position. As for your point about 'Natives' I have no fucking clue what you're babbling about and given the Pilgrims arrived 2 or 3 hundred years before the existence of IQ tests I'm unsure as how anyone used IQ tests to say how 'natives deserved' anything.

    [–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    due to extensive cultural differences invalidating the IQ testing protocol

    Broadly speaking, "No"

    5 Intelligence tests are not culturally biased

    [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I see your 1994 paper and raise you a 2000 one by Raven himself: https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010028599907351

    "It would appear from the results summarized above that there has been, and still is, considerable—if far from perfect—similarity in the SPM norms obtained in different societies with a tradition of literacy at any given point in time. However, in common with the scores on other tests, and especially those measuring eductive ability through verbal or nonverbal items [see, for example, Bouvier (1969), Thorndike (1975, 1977), Garfinkel & Thorndike (1976), and the large number of published and unpublished studies brought together by Flynn (1984, 1987)], there has been a continuous increase in the scores at all levels of ability over time."

    Now, it is true that I am look at this sideways, and looking at the differences in score over time, but i think it is fair to say that the culture of a place today is not the same as it was 50 years ago. In other words, those two time points represent different cultures.

    We can clearly SEE either a bias between those cultures (assuming racial hetererogenity between the times) or some uncorrected for change in the tests, or something else. So either there is a cultural bias in the test, or some other factor is in play.

    I think the ongoing revolution in qbit based computing should be paralleled by advances in the science of intelligence. All our old models have a leaning towards computational systems. Linear, maybe parallelised, processing. We've missed the whole side of intelligence that is ignored by western science. Intuition, Inspiration... the non computational solutions of problems that is now physically reproduced in quantum computing systems.

    If we've missed that entirely in our IQ tests - AND WE HAVE (because we don't test for them), then it is likely that we are failing to measure differences in those processes across cultures.

    I know that when I was working with raven's matricies, the tests stopped being valid, because I stopped thinking about them as I was solving them, and could just pick the right answers without working them out, as quickly as I could write the answers down. Much like most advanced mathematicians no longer consciously work through their complex equations in a linear fashion, but simply solve them.

    So that's the place i'm coming from with my 'cultural differences', really. The idea that the tests miss something, and that failure is entirely due to the dominant cultural problem solving environment that created the tests. Its only applicable in certain circumstances.

    I am explicitly NOT coming from this kind of place: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/019188699290037P

    And attempting to explain away racial IQ differences with undefined 'cultural bias' accusations.

    So, sorry for any confusion. My interest is in the upper end of the intelligence range, not with the general population. I suppose i bothered to write what I did in the context of OP because... The american indian population had a very different approach to life, existing in a space with very different problem solving needs to the industrial west. They did very well, and so those as yet unmodelled systems of problem solving would not necessarily have been linked with the linear computational neural architecture that we test with RPMs I was just thinking about applying IQ tests to american Indians in their pre-contact state and so was examining the validity of standardised testing in that situation.

    a bit like: https://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/intelligence

    Of course, these days you could just test an american indian who grew up in a western culture and get a great measure of that linear architecture.

    [–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I see your 1994 paper

    It's more of a survey, not a paper

    raise you a 2000 one by Raven himself

    Lol - John C Raven died in 1970. This article is by his son, J Raven junior

    there has been a continuous increase in the scores at all levels of ability over time."

    The Flynn Effect is not on g.. The "Flynn Effect" also appears to have no effect on group differences. Flynn admits this:

    The magnitude of white/ black IQ differences on Wechsler subtests at any given time is correlated with the g loadings of the subtests; the magnitude of IQ gains over time on subtests is not usually so correlated; the causes of the two phenomena are not the same.” Flynn, 2013

    Just continue reading from your own excerpt:

    ".. On the other hand, variation in scores between cultural groups which do differ on a variable which has also changed over time and been suggested as a possible explanation of the time differences strengthens the possibility of that variable playing a significant role in the process. Thorndike (1977) and Garfinkel and Thorndike (1976) listed a number of possible explanations of the time trends. However, the data available on the Progressive Matrices do not really support any them.

    i think it is fair to say that the culture of a place today is not the same as it was 50 years ago. In other words, those two time points represent different cultures.

    This "culture" argument has just always been dumb and gay, sorry. Why would ""culture"" affect intelligence so much? What aspect of "culture" is so different since 1950 for example to make people smarter? Watching more tik-tok videos and Netflix? Presumably you mean something like "education" or "socioeconomic status," - well, from your same paper:

    "..Flynn (having, in 1984, queried Thorndike’s hypotheses concerning the Binet results) likewise concluded in his 1987 article that most ofthe common and obvious explanations of the RPM increase do not hold up. Among other things, he showed, through a detailed analysis of de Leeuw and Meester’s (1984) data, that changes in the amount of education people have could account for only 1 point of the 20-point IQ gain in RPM scores documented among servicemen. Changes in the intellectual quality of the home environment—at least insofar as it is indexed by SES—could account for little more."

    So basically, egalitarians are stuffed. The Flynn Effect is real - but it's not on g, and we don't have a lot of good reasons for why this is happening (and even experts aren't even sure) (p.27). It's also probably over, as our genetic decline in intelligence outpaces our secular rise in IQ

    I'm just ignoring your middle section. You can fantasize about some hitherto "untested" aspects of intelligence if you want and what they could mean for race and IQ differences - but in the meantime, g captures most anything we practically care about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)#Practical_validity and we have data on it for almost a century

    when I was working with raven's matricies, the tests stopped being valid, because I stopped thinking about them as I was solving them, and could just pick the right answers without working them out, as quickly as I could write the answers down

    Yeah all IQ tests lose their g-loadedness as you memorize them, something that has been known for decades.

    My interest is in the upper end of the intelligence range, not with the general population

    Ok well we're interested in both and the mean is especially relevant for racial outcomes in multiracial societies

    They did very well

    By what metric

    I'd spend more time on your comment but no one is going to see it and you should just make a post on IQ/g instead.