Do you think that there is any benefit in pushing for specific "high optics" reforms like free speech in order to increase political freedom and polarisation, or is that just a futile waste of time that will at best distract from the main issues and waste valuable populist energy?

submitted by NeoRail from self.debatealtright

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[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

1) Yep I think in some cases it could be useful, it would have to be judged case by case.

2) Exactly, the communists were tolerated and supported insofar as they helped the bourgeois reach their goals and their own goals that didn't align just got thrown out the window.

3) I think they co-opted and subverted stuff. Marcuse is the big example, he was apparently unknowingly being funded by the CIA. We know that the entire New Left was basically a conglomeration of CIA psyops or infiltration/subversion ops of existing movements. I think for things like Civil Rights they had an agenda and then faked the grassroots but for things like the Frankfurt School/New Left they just used these intellectuals' work to push their own agendas.

4) Yep it's tough, every approach you think of the system seems to have endless resistance and ways of destroying it. I just think the only possibility we have is an open organisation/movement because even if the government bans you you can just come back with another name and the public will still support you. If they imprison/assassinate leaders you get martyrs and a radicalised public. With the ideological but faceless leadership the public doesn't have a group or personalities to rally behind in the same way so if these movements gets fucked the public doesn't have these like celebrities or groups they trust to regroup behind, you're basically left at square one. It all relies on essentially creating an institution of the public, we have to have a mass movement that is irresistible like the fascists did last century. Maybe there is another path to getting power but I can't see it and I don't know of any historical precedents of them happening.

5) I think the general public do support free speech, they just aren't passionate about it. The only people who are politically passionate are oversocialised people who defend the system and then our group of dissidents who are mostly too scared to show public support because they think they'll lose their job, home, family, maybe their freedom etc. Most people agree with us on most issues it's just that their isn't the energy, radicalisation, consciousness or whatever you would call it necessary for them to get out and start doing stuff.

Then again, excluding elite politics and popular support or at least popular discontent as objectives, what even is there? In practical terms, I feel like the right wingers that promote lifting and reading are actually the most effective activists since at least their efforts go towards something, but you can't achieve change just with that.

Not much at the moment. The problem with reading lifting people is that both activities are individual rather than social so these things do nothing to help the cause. If they switched to training a team sport, mma or something social and started doing civic work/volunteering even if it's for a charity or just doing favours for neighbours they would be doing much more to lay the foundations for a popular movements. If every nationalist is popular or even seen as a 'local hero' in his community for the stuff he's done for his neighbours and such it creates the necessary foundation for us to gain popular support. Victory is won through social capital and mass support, the way we build these is by every nationalist being part of a nationalist organisation and multiple association groups (volunteering, sports, leisure, religion) where they can build their reputation/network/community and support for our goals. In marketing word of mouth is known as the best kind of advertisement, imagine if every nationalist was known by everyone in his community for being a great guy who is trustworthy. How easy it would be to get them to donate and support your political organisation without them even knowing the first thing about politics, they would simply associate your group with you, they'd assume that the whole organisation is filled with local heroes.

6) Yeah it was surreal. I can't imagine a bunch of boomers having the balls to just walk into parliament and start clowning around or something. It seems in America people don't take the authorities seriously at all (except catladies) which is a great sign for the future for Europe. With America collapsing, balkanising or having a revolution it opens up all the possibilities for us here because there's no America to fuck us.

7) Yep you're right. We'd have to carefully use our resources and time as individuals to do things that would net you the most support from your local community. I do think with the power of social media you can become like a local meme superhero though, I've seen viral videos of people who take it upon themselves to fix potholes and even clean roadsigns and people rally behind them and talk shit about the local councils together. We'd need to just be savvy with social media marketing and choosing the right things to help people and 'stunts' to gain popularity.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If they imprison/assassinate leaders you get martyrs and a radicalised public.

I think a bigger threat today is the total denial of services and the censorship, as well as the hegemonic nature of liberal propaganda. To give an example, I think that a non-negligible amount of people on the right who would otherwise feel represented by Patriotic Alternative or other groups of that sort end up reacting with relief, rather than horror, to news like the cancellation of banking services to Laura Towler and Mark Collett. It's not that the prospects of this type of unpersoning become less scary, but in their minds at least the "bad apples" are marginalised, allowing them to negotiate with "the left" or rather the system on a more respectable basis and get a "sensible solution" for the current issues. The paradox is that nothing about those people is liberal, in fact they share every or almost every belief with Laura and Mark, but their identity is liberal or "democratic" and they've been taught to recognise and reject any approaches outside the accepted paradigm as a matter of instinct. That leftists cheer for state repression is unsurprising, but when even the normies are indifferent the situation becomes more difficult.

7) Yep you're right. We'd have to carefully use our resources and time as individuals to do things that would net you the most support from your local community. I do think with the power of social media you can become like a local meme superhero though, I've seen viral videos of people who take it upon themselves to fix potholes and even clean roadsigns and people rally behind them and talk shit about the local councils together. We'd need to just be savvy with social media marketing and choosing the right things to help people and 'stunts' to gain popularity.

In regards to this, how do you feel about PA? I remember you describing it as a "hiking club" and seeing it in a more negative light, but they have been doing a bit of this and posting it on social media lately. I think they did some sort of soup kitchen for the homeless recently and deliberately used non-kosher and non-halal ingredients which immediately invoked the ire and hatred of blue checkmarks etc. These types of points of contention still seem so strange to me.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

1) Yep, also the endless amounts of gayop parties like Britain First, For Britain, UKIP, Brexit Party for nationalists and then the endless fake leftist parties too for pro-worker politics. I was interested in George Galloway's party as a real leftist party but it's just like a George Orwell clone, libtard nationalism (Bourgeois Patriotism) with socialism mixed in. Then you go to their social media pages and all they go on about is how we need to hate Japan for being the bad guys in WWII, I can't even understand what the angle is on this one it's just a bizarre gayop.

2) Yes they started as just a social club but they're branching into doing civic work which is great. Mark's propaganda recently has been boneheaded though, he's doing covid hoax stuff and shit like that which only appeals to weirdos. They did leaflets telling people covid is a hoax, imagine if someone in your family died and the next day you got that through your door, it's so irresponsible.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

1) I have only heard very little about Galloway's party, but as far as I understand it they recycle a bunch of the old Churchill era myths and mix those with some of the Old Left tankie myths. The demographics of the party are probably the most interesting thing about it, though. Lots of normal guys.

2) I am still not sure what exactly the PA engagement strategy is. Initially, I got the impression that they were trying to establish PA as a vanilla nationalist party but then not long after they started posting about Oswald Mosley and other types of wrongthink. We'll have to see how the party develops in the future.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

1) To me they look like a gayop. It's fake nationalism with left wing economics, like UKIP for those who actually look into UKIP's economic policies and realise they're dogshit.

2) They were trying to just be like good optics white nationalists at first but then started Mosleyposting and talking about 'Fashtonbury' (Glastonbury for nationalists like a camping/festival thing they were talking about setting up). The weirdest thing is they're not even fascist from what I can tell, they don't talk about anything to do with worker organisation, finance, usury, speculation etc the typical fascist talking points and they have published like lolbert kind of articles about the gold standard and shit. I hope they do start getting economically populist, I'm not interested in just a nativist party with no substance. I think with them doing civic work and getting on the ground they will probably become more populist economically because they will hear the concerns of ordinary people more rather than middle class racist-Tory internet spergs who think Pinochet, Franco and Churchill are based.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1) I feel like they are probably genuine but just very boomer. Fake nationalism is the hallmark of tankie and Churchill type bullshit. The rank and file might have some potential though, I don't know.

2) I was under the impression that the leadership and activist core are basically all fascist, but that they are using some high optics strategy as you said in order to avoid trouble and court moderate votes. There was this photo that circulated on Twitter of Mark with his old ex girlfriend and her gigantic swastika tattoo, for example. A lot of them are ex-BNP as well. I know exactly what you mean in regards to their platform, it seems like a single issue nativism party - that's why I was so confused to see them change their approach. Apart from their nativism there isn't much else to their policies, but they still namedrop people like Mosley.