A few questions from someone new to the alt-right

submitted by Lelek from self.debatealtright

I have recently begun reading about topics such as human biological diversity, sex differences in intelligence and the value of tradition. While I broadly agree with the alternative right on these issues there are a few things I am unsure of and would appreciate it if you could answer a few questions.

1.What are the best, most comprehensive and up to date resources regarding the demographic future of Europe?

2.If IQ is heriditary then how come Middle Easteners, who cluster closely with Europeans in genomic studies, average around the same IQ as African Americans?

3.How would you respond to studies like this one that argue that twin studies are methodologically flawed and therefore should not be used as proof for there being a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups?

4.Where can I find more active white nationalist/reactionary online discussion forums?

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[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

2: they do have some sub-Saharan admixture due to proximity, but more importantly, both Judaism and Islam promote close cousin marriages, and when this is a dominant practice, it leads to the emergence of recessive genetic diseases, many of which reduce intelligence.

[–]Lelek[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That sure is something I had not considered. Thank you.

[–]sylla94 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

is it a meme that jews are more inbred yet also intelligent then? or can they be both if they select more for intelligence

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whatever effect Jewish inbreeding has had on their intelligence, it has had notable dysgenic effects as well. They have a genetic predisposition towards neuroticism and a variety of personality disorders.

https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ashkenazi-gene-increases-schizophrenia-1.5294333

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't believe Jews are any more intelligent than Europeans. See Ron Unz: The Myth of American Meritocracy - Jews are vastly overrepresented in positions of power relative to their academic merit. They're just effective networkers, and ruthless.

[–]Nombre27 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Inbreeding can cut both ways. Even some of their neurotic/obsessive compulsive traits that can be problematic are also necessary or at least more prevalent in people dedicated to a field which ultimately advances that field, i.e. the dedication (obsession) that many rabbis have for their texts is no different than how some Jewish intellectuals/artists/etc., have relentlessly pursued excellence in other fields.

[–]Minedwe 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

The thing is, they aren't more intelligent. I've heard they test higher on things tested by the IQ test but tend to fail at other important factors of intellect not accounted for by the standard IQ test. I don't have any sources for this but it's something I'v heard quite a bit. Some time I'd like to investigate this and see if I can find any sort of proof.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

IQ accounts for memory, processing speed, verbal intelligence, spatial, and perceptual reasoning. See WAIS-IV subtests. IQ also has high correlations with creativity, or divergent thinking tests. Any part of what we consider intelligence not accounted for IQ is probably very insignificant or not intelligence at all.

[–]president_camacho 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Any part of what we consider intelligence not accounted for IQ is probably very insignificant or not intelligence at all.

I dont believe that at all. Richard Feynman is one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century and he's on record as having scored a 125 on a school IQ test. When they did prefrontal lobotomies it was noted that the procedure usually had little to no affect on IQ score, despite the victim being regarded as profoundly different by the people that knew them. There are countless examples of people with super high IQ scores that didnt create or accomplish anything of note.

I'm not saying the tests are worthless. If you score really low on one its safe to say you probably arent going to cut it in a cognitively demanding profession, but there are clearly people with similar IQs that vary greatly in some abilities that are definitely a product of the mind.

I took one many years ago and felt like the verbal portion was something that is highly impacted by being well read, or being exposed to similar tests or mental tasks. In the days before the internet, growing up with an encyclopedia in the home would probably boost someone's IQ score significantly. I'm not saying this because I'm bitter either. I scored slightly higher than Feynman allegedly did, despite struggling to pass physics in high school. I knew other people who scored lower than me that were clearly more intelligent and quick thinking. It was a nice ego booster, but ultimately meaningless aside from proving that I wasnt an idiot.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I took one many years ago and felt like the verbal portion was something that is highly impacted by being well read, or being exposed to similar tests or mental tasks.

IQ tests like WAIS-IV also measure the crystallized portion of verbal intelligence as well (VCI) but you can see your fluid intelligence separately on this exam.

In the days before the internet, growing up with an encyclopedia in the home would probably boost someone's IQ score significantly.

Crystallized portion of verbal IQ is not very impactful on your FSIQ. Not all subtests are weighted the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale#Verbal_IQ_(VIQ)

You'll also see how little vocab impacts your FSIQ found as only 1/4 subtest of VCI which is itself 1/2 of VIQ.

As for the Richard Feynman example you've mentioned, and people with high IQ scores not accomplishing anything of note, it is clear there are things just as equally important as intelligence for success like conscientiousness.

[–]Minedwe 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The thing is IQ tests often do not account for one or more of those useful categories, or under-utilize it. I've heard anecdotally that Jews test well on things like verbal IQ but then test worse in other categories.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, Jews score below average in visuospatial intelligence.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

they do have some sub-Saharan admixture due to proximity

What is the average sub-Saharan DNA in Middle Easterners? Iran has an average IQ slightly below African-Americans, I doubt Iran has any significant sub-Saharan DNA in the average person.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This study suggests that Iran's average IQ is actually 97. It is an Iranian study, though, so maybe take it with a grain of salt.

[–]PaxClownicahorses 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And note that only about 65% of the Iranian population is ethnic persian

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Welcome

1 This Pew article is a start

2 First, IQ is highly heritable (about 80% in Western countries) but the environment does matter, especially in third world countries. Most MENAs living in those countries probably have a worse environment on average than African Americans (lower nutition, education, and incomes). So their scores are probably depressed by these somewhat.

Second, African Americans are about 25% white on average. This gets them from a probable genetic IQ of 80 to a genetic IQ of 85. More on this in Richard Lynn's Race Differences in Intelligence.

Third, while there is a lot less genetic distance between MENA caucasians and European caucasians on average than there are between, say Africans and Europeans, it does not necessarily follow that MENA IQ scores must also be very close to Europeans. There could be more variation in intelligence-linked genes between these groups than other genes. So looking at the variation overall does not tell us the full story on cognitive differences. Ashkenazi Jews for instance cluster even closer to whites and they have a probable genetic IQ of about 110

3 How would you respond to studies like this one that argue that twin studies are methodologically flawed

The main criticism of studies like these is that twin studies assume the twins raised together share an "equal environment" that is basically the same, and that this assumption is invalid. This is obviously a very weak criticism that is probably wrong. If you share the same parents, the same SES, and go to probably the same schools, what "environmental" influences are we really expecting could impact IQ (or in this case, political views?) If you really want to talk about this study in-depth try posting one not behind a paywall, but that's the gist

Let's pretend the criticisms have merit and twin studies aren't that great for establishing heritability estimates. This doesn't really improve the case for egalitarians that much because they still cannot explain the bulk of IQ differences between races or an abundance of other corroborating evidence using environmental variables. So their case is basically unchanged since the 1960s where they are searching for some environemental "x-factors" theyve largely not been able to find - despite searching for many decades

Also this abstract mentions polygenic scores and lack of evidence from them, but is from 2008. Since then there has been more progress on explaining IQ and IQ differences using polygenic scores e.g. [1] [2] [3]

4 Other than places like 8kun, 4chan, or Storefront you have some communities in Ruqqus or Parler

[–]Lelek[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wow, what a complete answer. I really appreciate that you took the time to answer all my questions thoroughly.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah NP. Thanks for actually coming here to check us out

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In terms of number 3 then if there are methodological flaws present in twin studies then the answer is to do better ones. (I don't agree there are.)

There can be no possible better way to study the relationship between genes and environment than twin studies so even if there have been errors in previous studies -- these things happen -- the only answer would be to carry out more comprehensive and robust studies to replace them.

(IQ denialists and hereditarian denialists often employ the tactic of finding minor flaws that in their mind repudiate the overwhelming majority of data in a search to discredit the original conclusion. They're anti-Science zealots motivated by proving their personal world view not discovering the truth.)

In terms of 1 then your best source is the official sources of the governments themselves and the UN. They make official projections based on birthrates of native populations and current rates of immigration and extrapolate from there. It's not rocket science.

[–]PRSanon 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The largest methodological flaw of some twin studies I've heard of is failing to follow up later in life. A kid's IQ can be affected by environment relatively highly, but as the brain becomes fully developed, IQ converges towards what is expected given the parent's IQ. It isn't affected by environment too much (barring extreme cases such as malnourishment and similar issues).

This only further cements that genetics are important to IQ.

Here's some refutations on proposed environmental IQ gaps by Sean Last https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2020/09/30/on-proposed-environmental-causes-of-the-american-black-white-iq-gap/

[–]Lelek[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I can't believe I did not think of checking the official projections themselves. Thanks for the advice.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

1.What are the best, most comprehensive and up to date resources regarding the demographic future of Europe?

DailyStormer used to have a countdown, PatrioticAlternative has some stuff for the UK specifically, there's a bunch of like UN and other org projections of demographics. There's not much difference between the different projections, maybe a few years here and there ultimately the end is the same: we have a few decades until white people are minorities in their ancestral homelands.

4.Where can I find more active white nationalist/reactionary online discussion forums?

The good ones were /r/DebateFascism, /r/DebateAltRight and /r/The3rdPosition on reddit but we got banned. Other than that the DS forum used to be fun and the therightstuff.biz's (TRS) 504um was also good but they both disappeared a couple years ago. TRS now has BANG but it's behind the paywall, $10 per month for access to their forum and prolly like 10 hours of paywall exclusive podcasts weekly.

When you're bored of HBD stuff get into some meat and potatoes of actual anti-capitalist illiberal politics.

Some names: Schmitt, Yockey, Spengler, Codreanu, Gentile, Mussolini, Hitler, Goebbels, Evola, Eliade, Metternicht, De Maistre, Machiavelli, Degrelle, Mosley, Strasser. Just google any of them and find something you think might be interesting to read.

Check out therightstuff.biz, national justice party, cultured thug, keith woods, npi/radix for good quality podcasts and youtube videos that are informative. There's a lot of other guys too if you want more podcast/youtube recommendations hit us up.

If you want only stuff to do with race realism then AmericanRenaissance, Sean Last, Alt Hype and Edward Dutton are the best resources afaik.

[–]arainynightinskyrim 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

DailyStormer used to have a countdown, PatrioticAlternative has some stuff for the UK specifically, there's a bunch of like UN and other org projections of demographics. There's not much difference between the different projections, maybe a few years here and there ultimately the end is the same: we have a few decades until white people are minorities in their ancestral homelands.

Is there a place where I can find a collection of projections about the future of the demographics in europe?

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No idea, there prolly is something like it though

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2017/11/PF_11.29.17_muslims-update-20.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe#By_origin

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Those are current numbers and not projections.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The link from Pew are projections

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Wrong link, it shows data from 2016 and I'm not interested in data about muslims but in non europeans in general.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It does show projections just scroll down

https://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/pf_11-29-17_muslims-update-22/

But ok fair it is only muslims. But that's by far the largest non-european group in Europe

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Do you have any data about when europeans will become minorities in europe? I know that the US is projected to be minority white by 2043 and the UK in 2066 but I can't find data abot other european countries.

[–]cisheteroscumWhite Nationalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't, unfortunately

Some countries' governments, like Sweden and France, don't even track ethnicity or race anymore (officially.) Wonder why..

[–]arainynightinskyrim 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They know that people might revolt against the traitors. Thank you anyway.

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Another question, which of the 3 scenarios do you think is more likely to happen?

[–]VarangianRasputin 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

4.Where can I find more active white nationalist/reactionary online discussion forums?

The OG is Stormfront.org, which is mostly divided between newcomers and old-fashioned Boomer WN Hardliners (I love those guys). We have several 'guilds' on Ruqqus. Here is our 'sister site'. There's also a guild for Strasserism on Ruqqus if you interested in more left-leaning circles (we seriously need more people there). Reddit used to be a hotspot for us, until they cracked down on us hard after the George Floyd riots. Ever since then, we've just been reasserting ourselves.

[–]Lelek[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate the recommendations.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here are some more recommendations

https://counter-currents.com/

https://www.unz.com/

https://thealternativehypothesis.org/

https://national-justice.com/

Defunct but worth looking through:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180827034148/http://rightrealist.com/articles.html

[–]nickko 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

2.If IQ is heriditary then how come Middle Easteners, who cluster closely with Europeans JPG in genomic studies, average around the same IQ as African Americans?

African Americans are on average 25% European/ 75% African. Being somewhat European, they get an IQ boost compared to the average African who has an IQ somewhere between 70-80.

The average African American is 85. The average IQ of an ethnic group is based upon their natural environment. Europeans and East Asians have cold harsh environments where farming is required. Farming requires long term planning and residents of this are selected by their long term planning in choices. This includes in regards to their harvest, as well as their choice in mates. Europeans were selected for how they deal living in a harsh barren environment with long cold winters, also known as a "slow life history strategy."

Whereas the African climate is fast and chaotic. Food is plentiful, but disease is rampant. SO if you survived childhood, life was very easy in that food would wall from trees. But it could be very short given that you could die from a disease at any point. Africans were selected for a "fast life history strategy" that selected those who were the most successful in the short run in terms of how many offspring they produced.

Why do middle Easterners have a similar IQ to African Americans... Don't know. But I would infer that it has something to do with the environment they evolved in over the last 50,000 years. If you want to know more about the Middle Eastern Psyche, I would look into Islam and why that appeals to them. Mohammed designed it specifically for Arabian peoples, a software designed for a specific hardware.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If IQ is heriditary then how come Middle Easteners, who cluster closely with Europeans in genomic studies, average around the same IQ as African Americans?

Generations of inbreeding.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I doubt that much inbreeding was going on among the entire population...this does not explain it.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Joe Rogan and Gavin McInness famously had a hilarious conversation about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxOlX7-6uww

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In populations of North Africa, West Asia and South India, consanguineous marriages are culturally and socially favoured and constitute 20–50% of all marriages [Fig. 1], with first cousins unions accounting for almost one-third of all marriages (Bittles 2011; Tadmouri et al. 2009).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Average IQ of Libya is 83, yet has 30-39% consanguineous marriages. Morocco is less at 82, yet has less consanguineous marriages at 10-19%. It might not actually be making that big of a difference in their average IQ, or these IQ estimations are wrong. https://new-iq-test.com/libya-average-iq.html

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the likely explanation here is that Moroccans have more sub-Saharan admixture than Libyans, and that this outweighs the difference in cousin marriage.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's pretty surprising it's so high. Although, Morocco is 10-19% with an average IQ of 82, so that and with the sub-Saharan admixture might explain it. I thought North Africans were highly racist towards sub-Saharans?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought North Africans were highly racist towards sub-Saharans?

Perhaps, but even so, over thousands of years, two neighboring populations are bound to have some gene flow.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707606302

[–]FoxySDTWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

1.What are the best, most comprehensive and up to date resources regarding the demographic future of Europe?

Most European countries don't keep data on race so it's hard to know exact esimates. There is this pew article projecting muslim population in Western Europe in 2050.

2.If IQ is heriditary then how come Middle Easteners, who cluster closely with Europeans JPG in genomic studies, average around the same IQ as African Americans?

They are separate in cluster analysis when K = 7. I don't know which number the pic you posted used.

[–]Lelek[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That pew article was great. Thank you for the links.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You might enjoy this article as well.

https://evolutionistx.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/an-open-letter-to-liberals-and-centrists/

[–]Lelek[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It looks interesting. Thanks.

[–]WaltzRoommate 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1.What are the best, most comprehensive and up to date resources regarding the demographic future of Europe?

No clue.

2.If IQ is heriditary then how come Middle Easteners, who cluster closely with Europeans JPG in genomic studies, average around the same IQ as African Americans?

Heritability doesn't mean that clustering together means having the same IQ. I probably cluster very closely with Magnus Carlsen, but his IQ is probably 60-80 points higher than mine. Heritability just means that your trait will be more similar to your identical twin.

Also, the brain varies more than the overall genome, so overall genetic similarity doesn't necessarily imply brain similarity.

3.How would you respond to studies like this one that argue that twin studies are methodologically flawed and therefore should not be used as proof for there being a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups?

Let's have a look.

Today, this methodology has been largely replaced in favor of contemporary molecular genetic techniques

This is a lie. Molecular genetics make worse predictions than quantitative genetic studies (aka twin studies) and this is well known by everyone. Molecular genetics studies are cited to see how well we've progressed at using molecular genetics, not to actually predict what the world is like.

heritability studies have seen a diminishing role in behavioral genetic research of the twenty-first century.

I doubt he has a citation for this. I think he just assumed this would be true based on his lie. If you can find a non-paywalled version of this study and tell me what evidence he cites, I'll consider it but my prediction is that this will be asserted without evidence. I'm busy right now, but try typing the doi into sci-hub. Let me know what (if anything) he writes about this statement.

One important reason the twin method has been superseded is that it depends upon several questionable assumptions, the most significant of which is known as the equal environments assumption

There is no equal environments assumption in twin studies. We just measure how different the twins are from one another. We know it's not perfect, but we also know the numbers give reliable predictions despite their imperfections.

Here, we review the evidence presented and conclude that these attempts to test the equal environments assumption are weak

Who cares if attempts to prove equal environment are false when the assumption is not "crucial" like this author says?

You measure people with identical genomes. Intelligence is 80% more similar than to the general population. Now let's grant the assumption that we know for absolute certain that the environments are very very different and not at all similar. Who cares, we still measured 80% more similarity based on genes. No assumption necessary.

Also, this author's rhetoric is kinda dumb. In the very different environments assumption version of this, the logical conclusion would be that heritability is underestimated because more similar environments would lead to IQs being even more similar. He didn't think this one through.

We conclude that the equal environments assumption remains untenable, and as such, twin studies are an insufficient method for drawing meaningful conclusions regarding complex human behavior.

Again, total non-sequitur.

Why would different environments invalidate the measured numbers? Are people with similar genetics not actually having more similar IQs? Like ok, different environments. Whatever. The numbers are still there and still predict the world around us.