To users here who deny the holocaust, what are your arguments?

literalotherkin · 2020-07-07T22:34:48+00:00

[deleted]

antireddit · 2020-07-08T01:21:14+00:00

I dont doubt that a horrible genocide occurred, but show us the proof it was 6 million. It was in the midst of a war that killed 60-70 million people in some of the most horrible ways imaginable, in which both sides waged total war and intentionally targeted civilians. I mean we intentionally turned Dresden into a giant oven that roasted tens of thousands of German civilians alive, mostly women and children, not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Where I'm skeptical are the actual numbers, which supposedly are based on census figures, which seems like a ridiculously imprecise way to come up with such a definitive number that has been unchanged since the end of the war. I mean obviously the post war census is going to be much lower than a pre war one, as huge numbers of Jews fled Europe and/or went into hiding, or were understandably reluctant to answer census questions immediately following the war. In addition birth rates during a war when people are starving and people went into hiding and large numbers of Jews went into concentration camps would be lower, and death rates from natural causes substantially higher. There are so many variables here that could be ignored or manipulated to goose the numbers if you go the census route.

Normally death tolls almost always end up being far lower than initially estimated. Many Jews themselves seem to be particularly fond of severely whittling down the numbers of the Holodomir, from 15 million to recent highly disputed claims of just 3 million. If census figures were so accurate for that time period and such a great way to come up with such a precise number for the holocaust, why wasnt the same true for the Holodomir?

Add to the fact the 6 million is a claim they have every reason to exaggerate, as they have been known to do, such as the Cossack uprising they historically claimed murdered a quarter million to 500,000 Jews, but is now generally believed to have killed 6 to 14k.

Also, we now know the death toll at Auschwitz was way off. It was amended in the 1990s from 4.5 million to 1 million. If they were so wrong on that number, how do we know the overall death toll isnt as equally inaccurate? Plus why didnt this error subtract from the overall death toll at ALL? They tried claiming it was the Poles that lied, but they themselves pushed the 4.5 million claim for decades, did they claim it was almost all Poles that were have alleged to have died then?

Then of course there is the subject of why so many people survived in "death camps" for years, at a time people were starving all across Europe. For a notoriously efficient and ruthless people hell bent on exterminating all Jews, the Nazis sure did suck at carrying out their "final solution".

I'm open minded on this subject, unlike the ones who claim no one must ever question the 6 million. I have no fondness for the Nazis, and dont doubt they were murderous towards Jews, but if you are going to claim no one can question the 6 million number, then shouldnt you provide fairly definitive proof of this?

Minedwe · 2020-07-07T22:14:04+00:00

The idea that 6 (or even far more) Million Jews (not to mention other peoples supposedly massacred) is insane. Such a death toll would be impossible today with modern technology in the way described in a similar timeframe, let alone with the far less advanced technology widely available back then, especially in rather basic detention camps.

The original reason jews and others were deported and segregated was a stop-gap until Germany won the war, at which time they would have been deported. However obviously due to blunders and more or less bad luck, they didn't, and the very meager supply lines cut off food to the prisoners, killing many. The Soviets exacerbated this and with prominent jews fabricated mass-execution stories and facilities. The Detainees were malnourished and were being used for forced labor, but there were less than a Million total by internal records and photographic/empirical evidence. Notice the ONLY "death camps" in Germany were found by the Soviets, who have been proven even in the mainstream to have fabricated or blame-shifted war crimes to attack germany and justify their own atrocities.

The fact that the detainees were fed at all and that some were kept alive discredits this story. Even by mainstream holocaust ""facts"" the Germans, who allegedly wanted to completely eradicate the jews and other detained groups, only started doing so late in the war and only to certain groups of them at first. This makes no sense. If the Nazis truly had such a capacity to kill and burn/mass bury 12 Million people, why wouldn't they just kill them all in a far quicker, cheaper, less convoluted, and simpler way such as shooting them or something or incinerating them alive? Why not only use such a convoluted and lengthy system but also do it so slowly and in such a segmented manner if they wanted to completely get rid of them?

sineavec · 2020-07-07T21:51:33+00:00

To "deny" "it" is on your terms. I "deny" nothing, I follow the evidence. Regarding the question, two reasons:

(1) There are hundreds of references in American newspapers to the deaths of millions of [redacted]. It starts, at least, in 1900 with the rabbi Stephen Wise. There's a "funny"/unfortunate article from 1919 called "The Crucification of the [Redacted] Must Stop!", written by Martin H. Glynn. In fact, articles such as this talking of this "atrocity" picked up towards the end of WWI. Millions starving, millions dead. I don't believe the first two hundred lies, so why should I believe the 201st one?

(2) Does it seem like anything has changed since WWII? Does it seem like any groups have profited from WWII? If someone goes through Hell and survives, they change. They become good, not destructive. We live in a period of destruction. How are the Palestinians doing since WWII?

bug-in-recovery · 2020-07-08T00:52:30+00:00

No one denies that the "holocaust" as they call it actually happened.

We fully submit that around 200k people died due to various reasons.

It's the insane stories:

Freezer shatterings
Bendy shotguns
Human lampshades
Masturbation machines
Roller coasters of death

Never happened, along with the outlandish numbers.

Markimus · 2020-07-07T23:58:43+00:00

I don't make any claims, the onus is on you to make arguments because you're the one claiming something happened. People can fact check your claims.

ccccccc · 2020-07-08T03:24:28+00:00

I'm not quite sure what to think about it, but for one I don't know what to make of this kind of stuff.

The holocaust denial laws and prosecutions and the complete saturation of holocaust memorials down to tiny public libraries is also strange.

literalotherkin · 2020-07-08T07:48:23+00:00

I deny nothing and it's for those who believe in this thing you call the 'Holocaust' -- as Irving says more a brand name than a historical event -- to show me the evidence for it. Something they're terrible at doing.

I've seen real proof of the Holodomor and the liquidation of the Kulaks. I've seen real and credible evidence of the Euthanasia program in Nazi Germany and the killing of partisans -- many of them Jewish -- on the Eastern front by the Einsatzgruppen. I've seen real evidence of starving, emaciated Jews at the end of the war and victims of typhus.

If these things are this 'Holocaust' you speak of then I don't deny them. If you want to tell me some fucking Schindler's List tale with brutal, sadistic Germans, showers that are secretly gas chambers, Mengele experiments or any other Hollywood rubbish you want to come up with then you need to prove it -- and it will take more than a ridiculous tale told by some elderly Jew.

Edit: I'll add one more thing. Whatever it is that happened to the Jews in WW2 -- many things did and they obviously suffered -- at the end of the day I can't deny that though I wish no suffering on anyone you actually have to come to the conclusion, all facts calmly considered, that they more or less 'had it coming'. Their wretched behaviour always makes people mad and has done for thousands of years and the horrors they inflicted on especially Eastern Europe with their often fantastically cruel behaviour as Communists meant that Europe had become afraid of them. They'd seen the promise of this Jewish paradise the Bolsheviks were creating and the seas of blood that followed and they'd rejected it. Jews, as always, have no one but themselves to blame for the reaction people have to them. Which is why that is the one question they never answer satisfactorily in all their bloviating. The right answer to the question 'Why us?' -- as in why are we always getting a kicking -- could save them but they won't answer it like any other human would.

Richard_Parker · 2020-07-08T16:16:54+00:00

I do not think anyone denies the Holocaust, if it is defined as Reich policy to kill Jews wholesale. Einsatzgruppen happened, death camps happened. The numbers however are almost certainly inflated. Many stories I remember from 8th grade have been recanted: eg lampshades (I believe even Deborah Lipstadt concedes that never happened). The numbers are also nothing short of Enron math. The claim used to be that over three million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. That was later brought down to 1.5. There is no accounting as far as I know where that shortfall is made up. Also consider that the other five million non Jewish victims has lately been revealed to be a fabrication, made up to gin sympathy from gentiles.

You also have other problems, eg scant evidence that Treblinka was a kz. Finally, it gives me pause that there are so many "survivors" to collect the multi billion dollar Holocaust gravy train. Indeed, compare the high number of survivors with things like Unit 731 in occupied China; when the jig was up, the Japanese killed every last person before evacuating. Why did the Nazis allow so many to survive? Not that hard to mow down rows of people with a couple mg42 machine guns...

In the end I really do not care. I can fully stipulate all the numbers, all the stories. Even with that, it is still the case that over 100 million people were killed in the 20th century, that fascism was a legitimate albeit (fatally) imperfect response to Soviet Bolshevism, and that the Holocaust has been exploited to create a war guilt complex not just in Germans but all Europeans. This guilt complex is an existential threat that must be overcome. It is also the case that the Allies have about as much blood on their hands, with allied bombing raids, pressing for war even when Germany had the clear advantage, even though doing so meant sacrificing BOTH Germany and the British Empire, complicity if not endorsement of Soviet crimes against civilians, death camps for German POWs who did nothing other than fight for their country.

Finally, even stipulating every assertion by the Holocacust Industry, I still submit the Germans were the lesser of all evils, and it really is not close, especially when holds the critical distinction between Hitler, Himmler, and the political leadership on one hand the military and the German people on the other. On that issue, I far more troubled by German barbarity against for example gentile Poles and Russians, something no one talks about because those groups do not control international finance, the New York Times or mass media.

yesofcoursenaturally · 2020-07-08T13:18:08+00:00

I don't deny it, but I'm skeptical of the numbers and methods.

My reasons.

Seems rather convenient that the only 'death camps' liberated were all liberated by the Russians with a command structure top heavy with Jews.

Some of the earliest stories about elevators and jerk-off death-machines are absurd on their face.

The explanations about why death camps had fucking soccer teams and choirs and the like don't wash.

The intense focus on the killing of Jews specifically, pretending that Jewish deaths in any camp was especially egregious, is dishonest. The idea that 'Jews weren't killed for what they did, but for who they were, and that's why it's different' is bullshit, as any trip to Auschwitz will tell you, since the Poles make sure to show all the headlines about the Germans having it in for the Poles/slavs.

De-nazification was a massive cultural project, which arguably continues to this day, and the massive amount of lies and misrepresentation we see even where that is concerned is at least a point against the trustworthiness of the official depiction of all this.

I think any honest, no-holds-barred examination of 'the Holocaust' would radically alter our understanding of it, and this is not allowed, precisely because of the political capital it is perceived to grant.

IRONICALLY_A_NAZI · 2020-07-09T08:06:20+00:00

I don't even care if that's true or not, it doesn't justify what the allies did to German Citizens and PoW's. Watch Hellstorm.

LadyEuropaEffy · 2020-07-13T04:10:23+00:00

I don't know if I "deny" it, but the whole event is filled with contradictions and absurdities that I just don't know what to believe. There has also been a number of memoirs which have exposed to be a pack of lies decades later. Memoirs which Holocaust survivors themselves have praised with and even defended after the fact, which is pretty suspicious.

To make a comparison, there have been plenty of war memoirs which have turned out to be false or highly exaggerated to the point of being absurd, yet they get published. However, real veterans spot the holes and expose them quickly. You'd think survivors of genocide would spot someone was lying, especially if they claimed to have been at the same death camp.

One other thing I've always found suspicious was why they had to implement Holocaust denial laws around Europe after WWII. In some countries, even doubting the official figure is a criminal offence. Why? I mean if it's so obvious that it happened then the truth doesn't fear investigation.

Fitter_Happier · 2020-07-09T11:23:28+00:00

https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/59ar/the_7_phases_of_learning_about_the_holocaust/

debatealtright

Got user flair? ⇧ ⇧ ⇧

MODERATORS