all 29 comments

[–]specklemouse 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I sat on a heart attack for 3 days till I finally went to the Urgent Care place. They called an ambulance and sent me to the local place that specializes in cardiology. They inserted a stent through a tiny incision in my right wrist. Fixed my problem immediately. They recommended a pacemaker which I also had installed. I've been on borrowed time for 5 years now and I am immensely grateful.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah, cardiologists are great! I take it you've read the article?

[–]specklemouse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I did read the article and found it full of scurrolous content. Wasn't my experience.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do me a favour and read Part II of the article. Then you'll understand why I posted it.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You need to warn people of these crap postings up front.

It's not worth all this trouble.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah; I won't do it again.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, we know one thing for sure. This is a good way for a shill to disrupt a community. They're always looking for ways to do that.

And to be clear, I'm not calling wizzwizz4 a shill. If he were a shill, he'd post fake news stuff that doesn't declare that it's fake news. And he'd do it repeatedly. And not admit it or own it.

If anything this is a mistake and a good lesson for us all. Kinda like my Einstein quote shit post. Embarrassing but a classic example of what not to do.

[–]HeyImSancho 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

QUOTE: If you read Part I of this post and found yourself nodding along, thinking “Wow, cardiologists are real creeps, there must be serious structural problems in the cardiology profession, something must be done about them,” consider it evidence that a sufficiently motivated individual – especially a journalist! – can make you feel that way about any group.

The article was a basic, 'you're stupid if you didn't read to the end'; yet it compares cardiologists to police by way of racism towards ethnic Chinese for robbery? Okay, sure, why not compare to unicorns, mermaids, or any other profession where there's no relevance?

The first half of the article thrashes, and trashes cardiologists, with plenty of links to support said position, then switches to police by way of comparison to older almost colloquial beliefs; yet fails to produce any links with the second part.

All we need to look at for po-lice brutality, is Youtube, worldstarhiphop, and liveleak. We all know there are literally hours of bad deeds done. Anyone with half a brain knows all po-lice departments operate off of 2 sets of books; the statues, and internal policies. For an example of internal policies, loitering is often times a crime, but to charge someone with that alone amounts to pissing in the wind for said officer. So, what to do??? Some genius figured out that if you're loitering, then you're taking in all the sites, and sounds of the given environment where such actions are taking place; hence loitering is combined with a very very very bad thing to have on your record: PROWLING. So now, if loitering, you're actually 'loitering, and prowling'.... Prowling is the step before actual physical crime; very bad, and when loitering both go on your record.....

So again, wtf is the comparison between cardiologists to police by way of racism to Chinese, by way of 'especially a journalist'(in reference to what, wordsmiths, LOL).

What's my point? there are bad in all professions, there are cheats, fakes, and liars who have the necessary credentials in any profession to pull off the great cons, and have people applaud them for that. Are there bad cardiologists, by way of the article absolutely, are there bad po-lice; LOL.

No matter the amount of regulations created, it won't change the fact that people cheat there way into credentials, and keep on faking after making it.

Hence personal responsibility to be fully informed, know your standing, know that everyone may not be what they claim; I'm sorry that's the world, there's no changing it.

The alternative is to go blindly, and more so ignorantly through life believing all that your told, without ever anything resembling an original thought.

Now having that said, an anecdote of my own personal experience that I've already shared somewhere.... A friend of mine, was a Colonel in the US Army. He is also still licensed as a perfusiologist. He shared with me why he doesn't do it any longer. He was living in Maryland, making over $150k around 2000. He worked at the VA, and was on call for several surgeons at various hospitals; they were his friends.

Long story short, he got sick of the lack of care, and the deviancy he personally experienced. He told me of VA doctors that would take a patient that needed several separate surgeries, and just combine them into one, so it'd be cheaper for the VA. He relayed one story of an older gentleman that was having major organ surgery; I believe it was a bypass, but the surgeon decided to go ahead with a leg amputation at the same time. They didn't have the right saw, so it was described to me, that the surgeon used some sort of wire rope cutter; with all his effort he couldn't make it completely through the bone; so snapped the bone like a twig; amputation, and surgery complete! Other than lack of patient wellbeing at the heart of their concerns, nothing else wrong.

My friend though, as he became closer friends with the different surgeons would go golfing with them. It's in these games of golf that he decided he was done with his career as he'd known it(Now a naturopath/holistic healer), he said the differing surgeons would trade off their patients as prizes for games won; the primary doctor would then refer their patient over to the winner for procedures that were never recommended. He made it clear it wasn't just a couple of doctors, but many.

Do I distrust doctors, yes, do I distrust, po-lice, yes. Will I call the either, for help? Sure, but with steadied measure of the need, and with plenty of research.

Only fools rush into anything.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

then switches to police by way of comparison

That's "the war on police", i.e. people shooting officers. Not police brutality or any other thing about the police.

Are there bad cardiologists, by way of the article absolutely, are there bad po-lice; LOL.

No matter the amount of regulations created, it won't change the fact that people cheat there way into credentials, and keep on faking after making it.

Hence personal responsibility to be fully informed, know your standing, know that everyone may not be what they claim; I'm sorry that's the world, there's no changing it.

Yes, but cardiologists aren't more evil than average people – at least, not to the extent implied by Part I. Police weren't being shot in 2015 more than any prior year (except 2013) – and yet journalists cherry-picked enough to cause people to believe that they were.

Your anecdote is interesting, and it is evidence, but it isn't sufficient to pick up on a general trend. You'd need a wider survey to be sure… yeah, this bit is going to fall on deaf ears and I'm not good enough at explaining things to make it appear that I'm doing anything other than making excuses.

Sadly, we're human. You've heard of confirmation bias, haven't you? Well, that doesn't strictly apply here, but similar effects occur when you try to look something up online – what's reported, what comes up in searches… Even if you're out in the real world, making surveys and recording data, sometimes research alone isn't enough.

[–]HeyImSancho 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I read your link, and also wanted to discuss 'confirmation bias'. From Wiki: "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.[1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias I honestly don't like that word too much; while it can have merit, and validity, at the same time, it's a phrase that if believed in, or relied on too much, can cause the same issues as 'belief'; stating confirmation bias, also shows of 'belief' in that someone else is wrong in their 'belief'.

Both of the words, hypothesis, and belief, in the way used to define confirmation bias, come very close to defining, and replacing 'life experience'; which is something continually gained from childhood through adulthood to death. I know many subscribe to the notion of adulthood being puberty, but that's just sexually mature. The frontal cortex isn't even fully developed for women somewhere in their mid 20's, and for men a little later.

My definition of adulthood, is when anyone stops wondering, and realizes they are an adult due to making those truly difficult decisions, and having the full vested responsibility to carry through. I'm not talking about using a condom, or not, or breaking up with someone, I'm talking the decisions that haunt you, enter your dreams, cause you to lose your smile. The decisions that have repercussions perhaps for yourself, but more so for others. What will be this crucible for each person can be different, but once started, some never even notice, others really pay attention. Why?The older you get, the less time you've got to start over(it'll make sense to those that know)

Mixed with years, and decisions, makes 'life experience'. So, when you look, and think about this, and compare it to the definition of confirmation bias, as well as compare it to our daily lives; well it's being used definitely to re-engineer our society. Just turn on the evening news for examples, open facebook, or perhaps read a tweet; fast unsteady change is everywhere.

As to the link that falls on deaf ears; yes the world is full of people that cannot explain themselves. It's full of opinions, and studies, and similar, but also fakes, frauds, and at the end of the day, all truth is subjective; the truth that stays, is the truth that has the most money behind it, the most peer pressure, and the most group think behind it; the last 2 aforementioned are usually effects of money.

But yeah, some cardiologists aren't bad; likewise some shady folks aren't bad as well. The world is full of shades of grey.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Cardiologists are no worse than the rest of the population! Seriously! I am completely failing to understand the thought processes that lead you to that conclusion from the article, but… there's a difference between knowing that you are being manipulated in general and knowing you are being manipulated right now, and you've got the first one down.

[–]HeyImSancho 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Wow, it's too bad that you don't read what I wrote; I never said cardiologists were bad, or good; the only point was it's not black, and white; it's grey. The article in the OP, was a bait, and switch; if you don't read to the end, then it's 'open season' for those that didn't. The point of that article, wasn't so much that cardiologists are actually good, but considering the 'getcha' factor, it seems eerily close to the trend by Google, youtube, and the rest to insure we're all thinking properly in regards to how we digest information.

The article in the OP, is an article designed to create a sense of stupidity of those who don't read to the end, then reference, or post, and don't see what the authors overall viewpoint actually is. The silliness of this, when considering the length of that article, well not everyone has the time to be shown how stupid they are; people do speed read, and also look for the simple overall message.

In my first post, I tried to point out how the article was a little deceiving, although imho, a little more gently, and you responded to my post with 'confirmation bias', as well as a link stating 'falling on deaf ears'. I was only trying to conform to the organic nature of this thread; where by you introduced more material, which I assume you wanted to post to show the possible ways in which you see anyone being deluded with their own thoughts.

Also, I don't see how suggesting people always think for themselves, instead of simply taking the group think prerogative, such as 'everyone else does it, so it's all 100% safe', is incomprehensible. It's funny how so many try to argue that group think, or 'experts' opinions are better than trusting your own mind, thoughts, and intuition, when faced with having to live with the repercussions.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

it seems eerily close to the trend by Google, youtube, and the rest to insure we're all thinking properly in regards to how we digest information.

You've got it in one! There are a couple of key differences, though:

  • That's what the entire website is about; they're not shoving it down people's throats on unrelated sites using their power as site owners.
  • A politically uncharged topic was chosen, as opposed to one where people actually believe, for possibly legitimate reasons, that the people in question are bad.
  • It predates the "trend" by a few years.

The article […] is designed to create a sense of stupidity of those who don't read to the end,

Sorry; this was entirely my fault. No, it's not. It's trying to prove a point about flaws in human cognition, so people can learn to compensate for that and become less wrong. I deliberately misrepresented it for reasons that I'm struggling to justify now.

then reference, or post, and don't see what the authors overall viewpoint actually is.

No. It's really, really not that. Sorry, I didn't even think this topic was politically charged. This is entirely my fault. I know of nobody who's using this blog like that, other than me.

In my first post, I tried to point out how the article was a little deceiving,

Part I is completely deceiving. But Part II isn't the deceiving part. The whole point of the article is that all of the examples in Part I aren't evidence that cardiologists are generally bad, and aren't evidence that cardiologists are generally good; they just aren't good evidence.

people do speed read, and also look for the simple overall message.

That article didn't have a simple overall message, because the articles on that site generally aren't written like that.

in which you see anyone being deluded with their own thoughts.

Also, I don't see how suggesting people always think for themselves, instead of simply taking the group think prerogative

Oh, shit. This backfired. This backfired.

Hey, I'll get back to you on this. But if you just ignore the specific examples, you'll see that the article is agreeing with you there.

than trusting your own mind, thoughts, and intuition,

Which are flawed in a known way, and easy to manipulate, assuming bad actors, or frequently get things wrong in everyday life.

[–]HeyImSancho 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Oh Wizz,

I can share something with you that should set your mind at ease in regards to 'helping people better themselves in regards to learning, communication, and life in general', it's the most true colloquial saying I've experienced:
"You cannot fix Stupid"

I try to embrace that saying in all aspects, with respect to others that either may not have the real mental acuity, or perhaps haven't ever been able to for whatever causation, have a clear vision of subject matter at hand.

Meaning, I try to break things semi-gently, try to learn where someone is coming from, and compare what I know of their life story, to that which I know through experience, so as to better express common personal understandings of communication. We all may share a common language, but interpretation beyond that is far more complex.

No matter how hard we try, any of us, we cannot change someone else, as another colloquial saying goes,'you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'.

The irony for many though, is they think they can help others when others never asked for help; there's a saying for this too, but my point was simple, sometimes things are just without reason, or answer as to why, and acceptance of a given reality is just that, accepting for what it is, how it is, and that perhaps the flaws we see could be with ourselves. On that note, exploration of thought is awesome!

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It may be true that you cannot fix stupid. But you're not stupid. I'm not stupid. JasonCarswell isn't stupid. Despite his obsession with calling me a shill, I don't think Tom_Bombadil is too stupid either (though I've given up on trying to "fix" that for now).

Yet we're all falling for the same stupid traps in reasoning. When I first arrived here, I was berating JasonCarswell for being so stupid as to believe something that was Wrong™, because there wasn't enough evidence to prove it when P(0). I insisted to myself that I actually was paying attention to the many pieces of evidence I was being shown, but I wasn't. (I'm still not, but at least I acknowledge that and stay out of such debates now.)

/u/Tom_Bombadil (mentioning you here out of politeness), I think, is caught in a Happy Death Spiral about me being a shill. There was certainly sufficient evidence to start with that I was – I was repeating stuff and arguing from a position of ignorance with surprising enthusiasm – but the evidence for that hypothesis has dwindled and the evidence against has mounted, yet now you're left with his user page never being free of an accusation, while nothing I can do will change his mind. I think that that is sad.

I think you can guess my motives now. I rarely behave accordingly, because I'm not great at this, but I'm improving. One day, I hope to be able to help others.

[–]HeyImSancho 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Interesting, and on that note, I don't think anyone's completely stupid, but I do take the saying to heart; to contemplate as a 2 way street. The reason being is that it forces me to remember my comprehension isn't the next person's; meaning to truly communicate may take a different approach case, by case. World leaders know this, hence when speaking the language necessary at the time, they'll still have a translator familiar with local culture so as to fully grasp any culturally specific nuances.

One quick last question though, you said, 'Yet we're all falling for the same stupid traps in reasoning', can you clarify this, and how so?

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You seem to be better at picking up on them than me, actually; lots of what you're saying is plainly-spoken wisdom.

I'm taking about these sorts of traps (apologies for the LessWrong link spam): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 They're really stupid traps, and yet I look back at my previous behaviour and see even just the ones I've learned about everywhere… and I look back at how I behaved 10 minutes ago and see it too.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Please repost in /s/Health

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, ok. Here you go.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    When I commented I thought it was about health so a crosspost was in order. Then I read it, but it had been crossposted and my comment had been commented on and I decided not to delete my request.

    My Lesson: Read the post first. (I usually do.)

    [–]HeyImSancho 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Jason,

    Seriously, Deep Respect for this; it takes someone with great self reflection, and all that goes along with that, to state as said.

    I hope I'm seeing the original post deleted-author wrong. In that it means the thread is basically invisible to new readers; if I am, my deepest apologies Wizz, for my error.

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I still don't know of any deletion. I believe this is the post as it was, as when I was last here, except for all the new comments.

    Maybe you saw the repost version there and thought your first post here was gone when really you were just over there. Maybe?

    I don't know about threads being invisible.

    [–]HeyImSancho 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    it was a duh duh duh moment comment; deleted.

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    The comments seem to be here.

    I didn't read it fully at first because this was being referenced by wizz in another conversation about a crazy idea he had about doing Facebook like experiments on people here.

    [–]HeyImSancho 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Okay, so what does it mean in the OP, where it says, 'author deleted'

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't know exactly. To me it sounds like the user's account was either self-deleted or admin-deleted. There have been trolls with unpleasant names and saying unpleasant things. Maybe?