all 85 comments

[–]maryslamb 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

There's a very good reason for this: semen making contact with feces and entering into the wrong parts of the body is extremely unsanitary and causes STDs.

I am positive this would only cause an STD to transmit if one of these people already had one, 2 men without STD's cannot get STD's by buttfucking each other, although if one has an STD already its more likely to transmit from anal than vaginal sex.

Also your quote doesn't forbid fucking a woman in the ass, which you'd think they would if the anality of the sex was the problem rather than the homosexuality of it. But fucking anyone in the ass carries an increased risk of transmitting STD's (granted someone already has one)

This passage very much seems to be about homosexuality rather than anal sex given the prohibition on bedding a man but not anally fucking your wife (I'm well aware sodomy is described as a sin in other places in the bible, but sodomy is NOT mentioned here, and I think that is telling), I'm not sure I agree with you about the intent of the authors of this passage

[–]Vulptex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Perhaps anal sex with a woman wasn't really thought of. Notice how lesbian relations aren't mentioned at all.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Perhaps anal sex with a woman wasn't really thought of. Notice how lesbian relations aren't mentioned at all.

Yes that's an interesting point and one I hadn't thought about before, but I do think it strange they did not use the word sodomy, despite using that word specifically in many other places in the bible.

An interesting discussion on the interpretation nonetheless

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Sodomy is an archaic English translation of various words of sexual immorality. It technically means anal or oral sex. How that came to be probably has to do with the incident where the Sodomites tried to rape angels. Reading the actual story makes it clear that there was a lot more to it than "Oh no they like guys!". And they probably had other motives than sexual pleasure, there's no way they were ALL naturally gay.

Leviticus 18:22 rarely uses sodomy because it's not worded that way. The surrounding verses regulate sexual behavior in various ways, with completely forbidden ones being "lying fleshly with". But the one about males with males only speaks of lying as a woman, not all lying. Also, you have to consider, Bible translations are almost always made by Christian organizations with a theological agenda to push. This line is not mistranslated per se, but the translators word it in such a way, "as with a woman", that it's too vague to see that the prohibition is restricted to lying as a woman only. Another good example is in Jeremiah 7, where God denies ever giving commandments to make animal sacrifices or burn people alive as punishment. In the next chapter, he complains in verse 8 about the "lying pen of scribes". Since this is absolutely damning to the doctrine of inerrancy, most translations alter the line in chapter 7 to make God say instead that he did not only give commandments for animal sacrifices. Then they are free to reinterpret Jeremiah 8:8 as referring to external commentaries or the interpretation of the law.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks Vulptex, appreciate the info on the translations, these word choices matter when trying to read between the lines of the text. It seems like this wording I'm splitting hairs about is more an artifact of the translation than I realized, and yeah the definition of sodomy is somewhat more unclear than I thought anyway. It's hard to figure out exactly what these authors intended to say thousands of years and some translating later

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, forgot to ask. Is there any particular translation of the Bible that you think is more faithful than the others? Reading Hebrew isn't really something I can do

[–]Vulptex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The academic ones usually have less bias. But even they still have bias. And sometimes you have to pick an interpretation, because the original language could mean multiple things in a way that's impossible to express in English.

You may want to check out Marcion's Bible too. An examination of the evidence shows that his came before ours. The differences don't have much connection to his theology. Be mindful when something doesn't seem right, or the language doesn't seem like the author's.

I would try using an interlinear, but check the words to make sure even the interlinear isn't leading you astray. For example in Leviticus 18:22 many of them still change "lyings of" to "as with". You won't realize it until you look up the actual word. If you're on a website you can probably click on it. This is a pretty deep rabbit hole.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Another common mistranslation is 1 Corinthians 11:16, which in regard to women wearing head coverings says "we have no such practice", but most translations change it to "we have no other practice".

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You know a lot about the original wordings of these texts, certainly more than me. Why do you think that the word sodomy is explicitly used in so many places, like Sodom and Gomorrah got destroyed because they were doing 'sodomy' not 'laying with men', (at least in the versions I recall, not sure about the wording of the original Jewish texts) what do you attribute this slight difference in wording to? I find it very curious, but maybe I am reading too much into this. Interested to hear if you have a take on it

[–]Vulptex[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Modern Christianity would have you believe Sodom was destroyed entirely because of homosexuality. But in reality they were already going to be destroyed before that incident. And what made that incident evil was not because of homosexual attractions, but because they were trying to rape the angels God sent to visit Lot. And in those cultures people were obligated to protect their guests above themselves and their own household, which explains why he tried to appease the Sodomites with his daughters.

The English definition of sodomy is anal or oral sex. I don't know how exactly that came to be.

[–]maryslamb 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, very good Ed, thats what we are discussing. Do you have any thoughts on the interpretation of these verses?

[–]maryslamb 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think those passages have much to say about Vulptex's topic of sodomy and homosexuality

[–]notafed 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

that poster doesn't have anything useful to say. Block and move on.

[–]maryslamb 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

i don't give a fuck what you think

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It seems you do care what I think if you feel the need to tell me about it

[–]maryslamb 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

i am not available to answer your call.

please call again when I am available.

please keep this number private.

(863) 703-7633

[–]LarrySwinger2 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Romans 1 prohibits homosexuality in general. It reads:

26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Their females exchanged natural intercourse[e] for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the males, giving up natural intercourse[f] with females, were consumed with their passionate desires for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

That's the New Testament, of course, but I would argue that the authors of the Tanakh condemned it as well. Note how the only homosexuals that appear in the Tanakh are also rapists. The first episode is when the citizens of Sodom attempt to rape two angels, this is described in Genesis 19. The second episode is when Benjaminites attempt to gang rape a travelling Levite, this is described in Judges 19-21. This correlation is no coincidence, it shows the authors' biases about homosexuals.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There's no way they were ALL gay. There had to be some other motivaton uniting them, such as wanting to put their victim to shame. Even so, a bias does not equal a condemnation. Leviticus is absolutely clear: don't lie as a woman with a male. The most literal translation is "And with a male you shall not lie a woman's lyings". Not "And with a male you shall not lie fleshly".

Tertullian's treatment of the Apostolikon confirms that Romans 1:19-2:1 is a late interpolation. No one who knows Paul well is shocked, because it's long been noted to have an extremely unusual writing style for him and has nothing to do with anything else in the letter. This is the only place that I think legitimately speaks of homosexuality, and even still not in prohibition, but treating it more as a punishment meant to shame and embarass those afflicted. And it comes from an extremely dubious source, probably someone from the Catholic Church.

[–]LarrySwinger2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There's no way they were ALL gay.

Actually, I think none of them were gay because it didn't exist as an identity yet. There were only homosexual acts, and I meant 'homosexuals' earlier to refer to people who partook in them. They were probably interested in heterosexual relationships as well. (It's interesting to note that in both of the examples I mentioned, they preferred raping a man over a woman, but that doesn't have to be because of a sexual orientation. You said it yourself, it could've been a way of putting someone to shame. And indeed, in Judges, they are content with raping a woman instead, showing that heterosexual desires existed equally.)

Details like these do have a deeper significance, considering the depth of the Tanakh in general. The stories were selected for the moral lessons they taught. Combined with the explicit condemnation of homosexual acts in Leviticus, and the lack of any positive words about homosexual acts in the entire document, it shows that they were against homosexuality in general. It's the same set of values from which springs the explicit condemnation in Leviticus, and the selection of only rapist homosexuals in the other documents. These confirm the views of the authors.

Let's evaluate what the point of this discussion is, by the way. You're arguing that Leviticus only prohibits one specific deed (anal intercourse), while permitting homosexuality outside of that. But what would the real-life consequences be if that interpretation was correct? Do you think there were homosexual couples in Ancient Israel who'd appear in public holding each other's hands but who'd be tolerated so long as they assured people they didn't partake in anal sex? I hope we can agree that that's an absurd notion. Once again, the identity didn't exist yet as a notion to individuals, let alone as part of civil society. I think we don't have to dwell on this.

I think you're interested in what the Bible has to say about homosexuality as a sexual orientation in this day and age. That's a bit more complicated, as it isn't entirely coherent. The New Testament ideal is to be celibate, but people aren't expected to live up to that; it's tolerated that people in general will marry. But heterosexual acts are explicitly forbidden, not just in the verses that we've mentioned but also in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11, and since the idea of being a couple is so entwined with sexual relationships, there's no conceiving that the authors would tolerate a homosexual relationship regardless of which specific acts they do and don't perform. The Old Testament is even less tolerant: people were generally expected to marry specifically someone of the opposite sex, with procreation being an essential goal in this. One couldn't choose to instead marry someone of the same sex out of some personal preference. You can try to ignore these values, but you'd just be trying to find a loophole.

Tertullian's treatment of the Apostolikon confirms that Romans 1:19-2:1 is a late interpolation. No one who knows Paul well is shocked, because it's long been noted to have an extremely unusual writing style for him and has nothing to do with anything else in the letter. This is the only place that I think legitimately speaks of homosexuality, and even still not in prohibition, but treating it more as a punishment meant to shame and embarass those afflicted. And it comes from an extremely dubious source, probably someone from the Catholic Church.

Thank you, I wasn't aware of this and I'll look into it. However, the subject is whether or not the Bible condones homosexuality. We can't dynamically pick passages which are and aren't legitimate. If the Bible is taken as scripture, then generally the whole of Romans is seen as inspired by the Holy Spirit regardless of the actual author of specific passages, and it's all authoritative. If it's taken simply as a document, then the fact remains that this passage is included in every single edition of the Bible and is therefore part of it; the author is equally irrelevant. It's the same with the Timothy passage I've mentioned: it doesn't matter that Paul didn't author it. But 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is, as far as I know, actually by Paul.

And let's look more closely at Leviticus 18:22, because I'm contending your initial premise too. How are you inferring that lying "a woman's lying" refers to anal sex? There's nothing particularly feminine about it, as one can partake in anal sex with people of either sex. Vaginal sex is the only type of sex that is properly called "a woman's lying". The phrase is clearly a euphemism, a technique that the Tanakh employs constantly. The distinction is important, because this means that it doesn't prohibit anal sex between a man and a woman. It's specifically the fact that a man takes on a feminine role in sexual relationships which is seen as offensive. You can argue that the scope is limited to anal sex because it says "lying", but if femininity is what offends, then that's equally applicable to oral sex between men. This would be in accord with the views held by people during Antiquity in general, so it's logical to conclude that this is an expression of those views. Can you name a single people from Antiquity that tolerated homosexual acts based on which specific act it was? It's only selectively tolerated in some cultures based on the age of the receptive partner, which confirms emphasis on gender roles. (Adolescent boys and younger were seen as not yet having developed their masculinity, and that's why it was condoned for them to be a receptive partner.)

(By the way, not Conspiracy, but whatever.)

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I doesn't have to be an identity for it to exist. No sexuality was soneone's whole identity until snowflakes needed something to make themselves special. Nor does it matter what society said, because they also killed the prophets.

Since the rapists were after both men and women in confirms they probably weren't even gay. This is guilt by association which is extremely foolish.

No, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 does not have "homosexuals" in it. Your English Bible probably does, but the original Greek has a word with a forgotten meaning...and one which some writers complained about men committing with their wives. There are actually two words, and the other can just as easily mean generally immoral or lazy.

The Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church and is not preserved or guaranteed to be divinely inspired. It iself says so (Jeremiah 8:8).

You close with an argument about gender roles. However, just like today not everyone agreed whether they should exist or not. That's why you end up with it saying two different things. Early Christians leaned toward abolishing thrm despite what your pastor will probably tell you. You mention how the only to lie "as a woman" was through sex in the vagina. Since men don't have a vagina, when they lie as a woman it is through their anus. That's the distinction. It's less likely that someone would've thought of having anal sex in a heterosexual relationship, and perhaps they did and that part of the text was lost.

That it is a euphemism does not make its meaning completely change. It's a euphemism for anal. Otherwise it would speak of "lying fleshly with a male" just like all the other prohibitions in that chapter. It specifically prohibits lying as a woman when you're with a man. Nor does it mention lesbians, for whom this isn't a problem. It's not because it's "feminine", it's because ejaculating into the anus has obvious health complications and spreads disease, which they had no treatment for back then.

[–]LarrySwinger2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry, but I feel like we're talking past each other. I recommend you read this article that addresses the matter, that's all I can do at this point.

they also killed the prophets

Which prophets did they kill beside Jesus and Muhammed?

Since the rapists were after both men and women in confirms they probably weren't even gay.

They had a clear preference to rape a man in both cases.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That article does not address any of my points, and is either wrong or lying in many places. For example it claims lesbians aren't mentioned because it's sexist, and every act is from the male initiator point of view. Clearly this person has not read the one on zoophilia, which specifically says that a woman should not lie down to be fucked by a beast.

As always the only legitimate one is Romans 1:26-27. But check out Against Marcion to see how much of Romans 1:18-32 he had (hint: only the first verse), and while you do that consider that it contains an abundance of language completely unlike Paul's.

Most of the rest of the article has nothing to do with condemnation, but merely disproves stupid woke arguments for every single good character being gay. That proves nothing but neutrality, the most logical position for this matter. If you cannot see this you are subscribing to the foolish modern notion that everyone must be explicitly for or against every single culture war issue, and that disavowing culture wars and identity politics is impossible.

[–]Anman 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

MMMMM. I think only once in my entire life on the internet have I ever met a person who actually knows how to research the hebrew correctly. Your attempt at trying to make it sound ambiguous and or give it meaning shows you are pushing an agenda while using fake evidence.

There is no translation that says it means:

And with a male you shall not lie a woman's lyings. It is (something bad).

You've just taken some random english modernised translation and put it over the top.

The indirect translation of the verse is (with strongs hebrew reference numbers):

Thou shalt not x3808 lie 7901 z8799 with x854 mankind, 2145 as with 4904 womankind: 802 it x1931 [is] abomination. 8441

The direct translations in written order is:

womankind 802 as with 4904 lie 7901 Thou shalt not x3808 mankind, 2145 with x854 it x1931 abomination. 8441

Oh wait, i could have just said this instead of correct you: This teaching comes from Kjeld Renato Lings. A supposed PHD. Who is a huge homosexual and perverts christianity for his own benefits.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Even your interlinear lies. Go online, where you can actually click on the word, and see that "as with" is really "lyings of". As a matter of fact, I'll do it for you.

Here is the corrupted interlinear you're using: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/18-22.htm

Now click on the word for "as with", and what do you get? Lying! (no pun intended) https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4904.htm

Notice even how both "you shall not lie" and this word are שכב. Now משכב here has an extra yod at the end. For "masculine" words this is the plural construct form (meaning the following word is its possessor). So it translates to "lyings of a woman", or more naturally in English, "a woman's lyings". There is no "as with" in the Hebrew. That would be something like כישכב את אשה. Even then, anal sex is still a valid interpretation, as that's a vague statement.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Yeah I can see why you would say that. It is tricky because the language flows like an asian language, not like a latin language.

You have mistaken miskab(e), for tiskab(e).

מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י

for

תִשְׁכַּ֖ב

In liv 18:22, the line is תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י

I find it strange though, that you would use one source for a corrupted version, then use the same source to correct it.

As I said earlier, this method of translating old hebrew was brought about by a faggot that wants to destroy christianity.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The root of the verb of is שכב. The ת prefix denotes a second-person singular masculine form. The מ prefix denotes some kind of noun deriving from the verb, in this case a lying. This is basic conjugation. Hebrew appends a lot as prefixes, even "and" is a waw prefixing the next word. It is unlike English. You're mistaking different forms for entirely different words.

I linked you that source, to show you how it even exposes itself. Their definition of the word itself is correct, they just take the liberty to "interpret it" in that particular verse. Which is not something that's typically done in interlinear.

Your last point is the devil's trickery of guilt by association. This is how Hebrew is translated everywhere else. This one word is the exception because they want to blur the distinction between unclean anal sex and normal homosexual relations.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Actually, I'm going to forfeit this argument. You can win it. Two reasons, I can not explain the little knowledge of have of old hebrew grammar to someone who does not know anything about the grammar. I am not that good. But the other reason is the main reason. A short amount of digging found that he talmud confirms your way of translating it. Taking note of the first time since the torah and gospel, that the words can mean either front and back of intercourse. So one, the faggot phd has perverted it for his purposes and the jews have also taking it into their holy text to add to it further. Right or wrong, no one wins with jews.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was not aware of either the "faggot phd" or the Talmud's explanation. That's what the text says, and I copied it in English. The Greek Old Testament seems to translate it in the same manner.

And Leviticus was also written by Jews. In fact nearly all the books of the Bible were written by Jews, including the New Testament. Even Paul, the most beloved apostle of anti-Jews because of his views on Judaism and the law, was Jewish.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

When I say jew I mean judaism. Where you were born and where your great great great grandparents came from mean nothing to me. Unless you have citizen ship in israel. lol.

Also, I will note, that the talmud commentaries this come from also explains that often when the word MAN is used, it excludes young boys. So figure where that goes next.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Perhaps that's why this verse uses זכר instead of איש.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't remember now, but it was talking about how other laws do not make the distinction. The talmud is essentially just commentary that twists words and meanings to give themselves what they want. So if anyone aligns with the talmud I generally walk away.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is making a distinction. "A woman's lyings", if it is referring to a forbidden kind of intercourse, is clearly anal sex. Another possibility is "lyings belonging to a woman", meaning don't lie with a man who's married to a woman because his sexual relations are hers. This may seem strange to you but it's a kind of phrase used in ancient Hebrew a lot. Just like "uncovering a man's nakedness" means to commit adultery with his wife.

There is no way to derive a blanket condemnation of gays based on this law. At least as it was originally written. Many translators change it.

[–]iamonlyoneman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

It also pans the idea of women whose lust burned toward each other. Homosexuality is a moral sin.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

That comes from Romans 1. But based on Tertullian's usage of Marcion's copy of Romans, Romans 1:19-2:1 is confirmed to be a late interpolation. Not that the opinion of a human holds much sway in the first place; after all, this is the same man who said "Those who were reputed to be something--what they were makes no difference to me, God does not show favoritism".

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Textual criticism is a tool of the devil to bamboozle people who are too stupid to realize their fake education didn't help them. The Bible is spiritually discerned, and an atheist academic is going to be wrong often.

Sex outside a marriage is sin.

Women cannot marry women.

Sex between two women is always a sin.

Even a child can understand this logic, but you're running right past the forest looking for trees

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Bibolatry is the tool of the devil to get us all condemned by making us follow the letter and the law rather than the spirit and faith. People lived for millenia with no Bible and were still faithful. You say spiritually discerned, but all the things you're glistening are carnal and literal. Your idea of "spiritually discerned" is "whatever everyone else in my tribe says". Does something spiritually discerned need a dead book to reach you? No, God is not of the dead but of the living. And who told you that book is perfect? Please show me where there is any divine authority for such a big notion, because as of now I can see that it was the Catholic Church who decided what was "canonical", and only the Protestants who invented inerrancy after their break with the church. All the church fathers acknowledged the possibility of corruptions in their Bibles. And Marcion had a shorter version of several books, which are clearly the older form. You're not going to like this, but in early times it was Catholics, Nazarenes, Marcionites, and Gnostics. Almost all of the New Testament falls under the fourth category, with some traces of the second. But your fear of "heresy" was drilled into you by humans to keep you from the truth. You are afraid to overstep the boundaries other Christians have placed on you, for fear of criticism. Just like the false brothers in Galatians who compelled gentiles to be circumcized so other Jews wouldn't persecute them.

Go to Jeremiah 8:8 to see GOD HIMSELF using textual criticism. I have no education. I merely discover proof of the spirit of holiness. Do you have the spirit?

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

You're off.

Marriage is a spiritual bond by the way.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

If it is a spiritual bond then male and female become irrelevant.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Men can't make the bond with men or women with women. We're not made for that.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Then it is a fleshly bond. You can't have it both ways.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You are assuming rather much

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You literally said it's a spiritual bond, then based your argument on fleshly distinctions.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You literally said it's a spiritual bond, then based your argument on fleshly distinctions.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Do not seek to be justified in the flesh. Marriage is less than ideal, but not horrible. There's no prohibition on gays. It doesn't list them specifically either, but it's not like our unsensibly rigid laws and rules full of technicalities, though Pharisees may treat them as such. It doesn't have to list every single possible exception. Do not accept something as dogma simply because others say so.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You typed out a lot of words there but the sequence didn't actually convey any meaning

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You probably didn't even consider them.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I tried but not very hard

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Jesus always talked about having eyes to see and ears to hear.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I saw with my eyes that I was poking at a fool and decided to not put much effort into it

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was once in ignorance myself. I always had a holy conviction that something was not quite right. But I suppressed it out of fear of criticism from my human peers, and out of the fears of a sadistic god they drilled into me. And I was advancing in religion beyond my peers, being extremely zealous for the traditions. I was prideful and arrogant, thought I was better than everyone else, and did nothing but condemn and judge to elevate myself. But when it become clear that such a shaky foundation could hold up no longer, knowing the gospel is undoubtedly the truth I had to go down the rabbit hole. Abandoning all my prior assumptions and traditions of men, I uncovered many truths concealed in the current day. And I thank God it happened when it did, because around the time of my awakening was when Christianity apostasized into almost nothing but identity politics and culture war battles. As soon as we were about to go over the cliff, I was pulled back. And now I must offer to lead the lost back up to the true path of life.

[–]ThrowRedditIsTrash 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

no man, the bible has been tampered with. that verse is talking about pedophilia.

we know that a cult of satanic pedophiles run the world and have been in charge of the vatican church since roman times. The reason they want people to be fixated on homosexuality is to run cover for THEMSELVES. they have placed innocent gay people as the scapegoats for sexual sins so that they can keep raping young children without consequence.

martin luther's original german translation of the bible used the word "boy molester", and the original text insinuates, "man shall not lie with a YOUNG BOY"

https://www.pinkmantaray.com/resources/bible

when it comes to what we now call GAY people, in bible times these were called EUNUCHS.

matthew 19:12 "Matthew 19:12, NIV: For there are eunuchs who were born that way, " -JESUS CHRIST

eunuchs were gay men: https://people.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

edit 2: the reason the bible doesn't talk about lesbians is because in roman times, there were only 2 genders: man, and BITCH. if you weren't a man you were basically property so no one gave a shit what a bitch did

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It has definitely been tampered with, and I think the parts promoting pedophilia may be among those added by the scribes mentioned in Jeremiah 8:8. But it is actually not true (but it is a common misconception) that זכר means young boy. In actuality that word simply means "male". However, the prohibition as written either refers to unsanitary anal sex or having adulterous relations with a man who's married to a woman. "As with a woman" was pulled out of the translators' asses.

Eunuch does not mean gay either. It's a castrated person. It may include celibates. When he refers to eunuches as "born that way", it means they have a defect which makes them sterile.

I'm not at all surprised that the Bible doesn't discuss 21st century culture war issues. That should not be such a shocker. It wasn't written anywhere close to our time, and identity politics is a bunch of bullshit.

You do make an interesting point about the scapegoating of gay people being meant to protect pedophiles. I never thought of it that way before, but it does make sense. My theory was always that since BATSHIT CRAZY LEFTIST LUNATUCS who have openly declared war on Christianity LOVE gay people so much, or at least act like it, Christians have come to associate them with the side of Satan. Remember, most people are very one-dimensional and think life is like a Disney movie where there's only the good guys and the bad guys.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do not covert your neighbour's ass

[–]Rastafoo 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Dang Vupltex; I know you love to shitpost but you should really be careful not to blaspheme so directly or you'll go to hell.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Open your eyes and you will see that I am serious.

I need not fear going to hell. I'm already here, and so are you. But this will be the last time for me.

[–]Rastafoo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Your shitposting and self-delusions will convince no one except those who already belong to the evil one. Peace.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mark 3:21 Those of [Jesus's] went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind".

Mark 3:30 They were saying, "[Jesus] has an unclean spirit".

[–]Oyveygoyim 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The bible is outdated

[–]iamonlyoneman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

your lame philosophy about the bible is outdated

[–]Oyveygoyim 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

How long have you been gay?

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

it's not a mirror sweety

[–]Oyveygoyim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aww, a gay man just called me "sweety". What's next...children's story time?

I didn't start this conversation in disagreeing with the title of this thread. Go stand in front of that mirror and you'll see who did though. All because he was offended by someone having a different opinion.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Being wrong isn't offensive though (?)

[–]Oyveygoyim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You say that as if it's a fact when it's nothing more than your opinion. A fact would be something like straight men who have children are more important for the future of society than gay men.