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[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

אלהים, Elohim, does not mean the same thing through time.

It starts as you have explained, referring to "godS", however this is like something saying "only the HEAVENS know what is going on". In early old testament is it the go to for all heavenly beings. God is mentioned personally and directly along side this.

Further on it is dragged through the canaanite language as a cognate and becomes a direct meaning for a single ruling deity. The way christians use the word god today, to refer to God.

This is basic etymology for this word. How did you miss this?

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

That doesn't work either. Human rulers are also called אלהים. The authentic writings are far more "gnostic" than you've been told.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Yes, that is because they were considered agents of god. Ruler ship of a nation was ordain by their god. This method of thinking is not just here, but across all of the various civilisations across the world, bar modern ones.

https://ehrmanblog.org/rulers-as-gods-the-context-of-ancient-religion/

David gets the drop of Saul, who has been trying to kill him for ages, but he doesn't kill him because he was chosen by God to be king: 1 Samuel 24 4 Then the men of David said to him, “This is the day of which the Lord said to you, ‘Behold, I will deliver your enemy into your hand, that you may do to him as it seems good to you.’ ” And David arose and secretly cut off a corner of Saul’s robe. 5 Now it happened afterward that David’s heart troubled him because he had cut Saul’s robe. 6 And he said to his men, “The Lord forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the Lord’s anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.” 7 So David restrained his servants with these words, and did not allow them to rise against Saul. And Saul got up from the cave and went on his way.

However, I am interested to know where in the bible the un modified word of elohim refers to a non heavenly being. Show me. Because I think you fail to understand the basic premise of language.

If I say the word "park" outside of a sentence, what do you think I am referring to? You can not say. I could be referring to a kids park, an open green space, or the status of a car on the road. This also applies here:

bê·lō·hîm

hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

kê·lō·hîm

lā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

lê·lō·hîm

mê·hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ū·mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ū·ḇê·lō·hê·hem

wə·hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ḇê·lō·hîm

Here is what I think is going on here. You have a vendetta against God and read in an article somewhere about this and did no further research.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

On a closer look the "human rulers" are actually still archons, but the translations obscured this fact as they do far too often. But that is beside the point, because it still shows that it does not refer to one god.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Show me where.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Let's break Psalm 82 down.

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

נִצָּב - stands

בַּעֲדַת־אֵל - in the congregation of el (the pantheon!)

בְּקֶרֶב - in the midst

אֱלֹהִים - of elohim

יִשְׁפֹּט - he will judge (or rule!)

Is he judging himself here?

עַד־מָתַי - until when (how long)

תִּשְׁפְּטוּ־עָוֶל - you will judge (or rule!) unjustly

וּפְנֵי - and faces of

רְשָׁעִים - wicked people

תִּשְׂאוּ - you will lift up (exalt, favor)

About life and earth he says:

לֹא - not

יָדְעוּ - they will know

וְלֹא - and not

יָבִינוּ - they will understand

בַּחֲשֵׁכָה - in darkness

יִתְהַלָּכוּ - they will walk

יִמּוֹטוּ - will shake

כָּל־מוֹסְדֵי - all foundations of

אָרֶץ - Earth

אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי - I said

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

אַתֶּם you (p) [are]

וּבְנֵי - and sons

עֶלְיוֹן - of the Most High

כֻּלְּכֶם - all of you [are]

אָכֵן - Surely

כְּאָדָם - like man

תְּמוּתוּן - you will die

וּכְאַחַד - and like one

הַשָּׂרִים - of the rulers

תִּפֹּלוּ - you will fall

קוּמָה - stand up

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

שָׁפְטָה - judge

הָאָרֶץ - the earth

כִּי־אַתָּה - because you

תִנְחַל - will inherit

בְּכָל־הַגּוֹיִם - in all the nations

This does not make any sense whatsoever if אלהים refers to a specific entity. Here we have elohim fighting with other elohim. Or is he fighting with himself?

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You ask if he is judging himself, but you have completely missed what is going on in this psalm. It is even literally listed for you. "elohim stands in the congregation of el (the pantheon!)"

Yes, this fits perfectly in line with the reference to rulers being the ones with heavenly authority, as mentioned. The interesting thing about this is that this comes up a lot in the anti bible circles. Claiming things like "god said there was more than one god", but again, it refers to those in authority that are supposed to be acting on gods will. Either heavenly beings, or worldly leaders. In this case it is in reference to worldly leaders as heavenly hosts do not die. If you still have issue with this, it comes down then to your in ability to accept that words have multiple uses and are contextual. Also, nit picking.

nit picking: As a non native hebrew speaker, I would accept this summary:

Elohim is found 2,606 times in the King James Version. It is almost always translated as God or god(s) or some other divine being(s). There are 5 times the word is rendered as judge(s); 2 times as great; 2 times as mighty and once as exceedingly.

However to address your hebrew concern, I went further and broke up the direct ancient hebrew.

Base reference:

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/psalms/82.html

For the first verse the god judging god is the same word and context. God judging god. Either this is the golden sample you can use to destroy the entire bible, or its just the actual etymology in play. As a I mentioned originally, the meaning is historically recorded as changing over time as a cognate. The same way gay used to mean happy, but now it means happy or youre a fag. So I can say, it's gay to be gay.

For 6 and 8 however. There are two different way the elohim has been used. There are distinct references to elohim as a plural and as a singular. God talking about other beings, using a similar word in a different context. For all intents and purposes, the direct letter for letter, yes, it's the same.

Interestingly though, this specific verse in the very way you are looking at it, is used against the jews by Jesus in the new testament.

He uses it as an example that the written law, when taken literally as it is written and out of context, is full of shit.

John 10, Jesus tells some jews that he is gods son and they take offence at that. Understanding that these jews are supposed to be teachers of the law.

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Essentially, in pslam 82, it is written as you are trying to explain it and Jesus says they're fools for trying to claim he can't be the son of God, because letter by letter, anyone teacher of the law could be God's out of context.

So. Which all of that, you being half right and half wrong, where to now?

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I never denied that etymology changes over time. The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew makes it clear that elohim meant God by the first century AD. However it was not so prior to that, when the Old Testmant was written. Therefore many instances of elohim are probably referring to archons rather than God.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Many? As part of this little exercise I went through about a hundred or so of the 2000+ times the direct hebrew word elohim was used. once, it was used as for something other than God and the context was very clear on this. This sort of sits in line with the king james note:

Elohim is found 2,606 times in the King James Version. It is almost always translated as God or god(s) or some other divine being(s). There are 5 times the word is rendered as judge(s); 2 times as great; 2 times as mighty and once as exceedingly.

I would say your "many" is actually "effectively none". 0.38%. More people die from covid injections than this and every one still doesn't care.

I didn't mention it before because it was personal preference, but I'll just use this as a sort of cherry on my own cake. I never actually use the psalms or proverbs books for my studies. They are merely poems and songs by a man who was put into power by God. While they are God inspired, they have almost no value in history, prophecy or expectancy of God's followers. I only see them as encouragement.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don't see any book as inerrant, inspired means inspired, and never were any promises to preserve a written word made, much less a canon of holy books. People act like God just dropped the Bible out of the sky.

But because elohim's usage changed, so did its interpretation. The KJV was made in the 1600s, long after elohim meant "God". That does not mean it meant that when it was written. Another thing you have to remember is dishonest scribes removing what contradicted mainstream theology. We know of at least one such case, where a scribe changed elohim to Israel, making the passage nonsensical.