you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm only going to refute the first few of these points because it would take me forever to do them all. But they all have the same problems: misunderstanding, projecting Protestant and Catholic ideas onto the meanings, or intentionally twisting them to appear bad.

Matthew

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

This could indeed be the person's works and rewards, not they themselves. This is a quote attributed to John the Immerser. When he calls them the "root of vipers" (Mt. 3:8), and then says "who told you" (Mt. 3:8) like Gen. 3:11, he is alluding to the trees of Genesis and their fruit. The axe is at the root of the tree to cut it, destroying its works but leaving a bare stump. This is an early Christian belief: "The work of each will be illuminated, for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed in fire. And each one's work, whatever kind it is, the fire will test it. If anyone's work which he built remains, he will get payment. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he will be saved, but thus as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15). Of course, by the one who will "immerse you in fire" (Mt. 3:11b). And pay attention to who he's saying this to. It's the Pharisees (Mt. 3:8), the sect known for their message of wrath and self-righteousness, and legalism. The bad tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden clearly represents the law, so it's significant that he says this to them.

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Mt. 5:17-20 is an interpolation contradicting the very core of what he begins saying next. In Shem Tob's Hebrew it goes abruptly from very fluent and poetic Hebrew to awful syntax clearly derived from translating Greek or Latin, and then back again. Lk. 16:17 originally said "my words" as proven by quotes from Marcion's edition, not "the law" which is contradictory here.

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

This one is absurd. Of course he didn't mean to literally mutilate your body. He means take actions to prevent yourself from doing bad things. It's worth mentioning that the statement on adultery was originally separate and was combined by a later redactor, see the parallels in Mark and Luke in which they are not linked.

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Jesus could not possibly have said that most people will go to hell, because the orthodox church hadn't invented it yet. Furthermore, this doesn't even necessarily speak of reward and punishment. More likely it is, "The masses are stupid and walk straight to their doom, so don't follow them".

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

This was imported from Mt. 3:10, see Lk. 6:43-44.

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

He could not possibly have meant "the Joos", or he would be condeming himself and almost all of his followers to that fate. Consider the context, in which he's not excluding a gentile. The point is that this kingdom he speaks of is made up of his people, rather than those who were born into the Jewish race.

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

This is missing the point. This and the surrounding sayings are emphasizing the lower nature of this world, and therefore human and worldly matters should not take priority over truly important ones.

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Everyone knows what Jews think of pigs. It is another literary device.

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

God is the judge, not the accuser. He does whatever he can to get everyone pardoned.

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

And how is that his fault? Humans hate each other. Humans persecute good people. Humans hate it when the social order and evil agendas are threatened.

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Again, missing the point, that the world and humanity are not as big and all-powerful as they seem.

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Again, not because he wants a sword, but because others will respond to him that way.

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Again, eternal torment in hell is never mentioned. And it's not "because they didn't care for his preaching", but because they were evil. This is a blatant twist.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This could indeed be the person's works and rewards, not they themselves.

Oh please.

He's talking about Hellfire.

This is a quote attributed to John the Immerser

Was it? A useful thing about John the Baptist, is that we have independent evidence that he existed.

But he preached the imminent coming of the final judgement of god. He's talking about Hellfire.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Neither of them could've possibly talked about hell fire, because the Catholic Church hadn't invented hell yet.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

What's this eternal fire Matthew was writing about?

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What's this lake of fire John was writing about?

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

What's this unquenchable fire Mark was writing about?

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

What's this punishment of eternal fire "Jude" was writing about?

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Based on its contents I agree with Martin Luther and much of the early church that Revelation is a forgery. However it's so cryptic it may not even matter.

The rest of your quotations say nothing about eternal torment. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire, they're not still there being tortured in it.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The rest of your quotations say nothing about eternal torment.

They all hit "eternal fire"

Surely that hits the main points of "eternal" and "torment".

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Eternal fire, not eternal people in fire.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

So they should go into the eternal fire, but then leave again?

The "leave again" isn't clearly implied.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They die again (the second death) and their corpses are burned until there's nothing left.