Censored on /s/Lesbians: An Appeal

submitted by [deleted] from self.censorship

crossposting since this was removed by the mod of /s/Lesbians and I don't know how long the censorship appeal process will take. originally posted here.

I no longer feel right about using "Lesbian" to describe female homosexuality after learning that Lesbian Islanders do not want this to be happening. I believe it is a form of appropriation of the same sort as happens when male people identify as "women". The mystique of Sappho and Lesbos became part of "Greek" homosexual culture elsewhere, and while there's nothing wrong with admiring or appreciating something from another culture or demographic, it goes too far when you actually try to co-opt their identity. It may not have been such a big deal back in the day, but the world is much smaller now and even everyday communication often has a global reach.

The "Greek" movement moved on some years ago and adopted "Gay" instead, and I believe it's time for the "Lesbian" movement to as well. Is the equivalent word "Lavender"? As someone who does not experience exclusively homosexual feeling, I don't feel it's my place to say what the word should be, but I do feel it's my place to say something about what I can now recognize as appropriation.

I know most of you here probably did not knowingly adopt the word knowing it was an appropriation. Presumably you just learned it the way I did: it was just what everyone else used. But I do know better now. And I believe it's time to make a change.

I hope you will consider rallying under a new (or older) fitting name of your choosing name. Perhaps reserving this sub for Lesbos Islanders, or for information about the history of Lesbos. And probably providing a brief redirect in the sub sidebar for those women coming through looking for this community.

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[–]SavvyDiogenes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There are so many words that are "appropriated" from Greece. Hell, the prefixes meta and trans etc. ARE from the greek language, so why would it be a problem that a word describing female homosexuality is from a greek island? How can language be "appropriation" when language WORKS on appropriation! English is basically german and french appropriated and mixed.

Appropriation in language isn't a thing. Languages evolve by borrowing words from other cultures and languages and making them their own. Language without appropriation would mean that we'd still be speaking whatever indo-european language existed before Latin.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hey, thanks for the reply!

That's true that languages often borrow words for ideas and concepts from each other, but "Lesbian" isn't a word that means "female homosexual" in Greek. It means of or relating to a specific place. "Lesbian wine exportation". Like Hawaiian. Or American. Or New Yorker. It seems wrong to me to take the word that means something else, and belongs to someone else, and use it as the name for your own group. If you look up "Lesbian" online, what do you think you're going to find? That doesn't seem right to me.

And further, as referenced above I know that Lesbians don't want this to be happening. It seems at least like common courtesy to honor that request.

And further, GC is an entire movement based on how it's wrong for men to take women's identities and spaces, including women's words. Or else why fight against "trans women are women" and the definition of "woman"? Why complain that there are no "actual lesbians" in "/r/actuallesbians"? It seems like GC has already articulated quite well why appropriating words and identities in this way can lead to problems for the people whose words and identities have been appropriated.

That's my opinion right now, and it feels well-founded to me.

[–]Fuckyoucensorship 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thats all good and well but being lesbian doesn't automatically make someone gc and vice versa. There are plenty of lesbians who don't like gc (or terf) ideology so this point would only appeal to that of gc lesbians as far as appropriation goes.

The niche mentality of gc is the equivalent of claiming west boro baptist is an accurate representation of all christianity when it isn't.

If we follow your logic to its natural conclusion then america needs to rename football since we've appropriated the name that was already associated with a different sport. A sport that america didn't come up with.

In fact, the greeks stole language from the Phoenicians. So from your logic we're third hand appropriating a language that was appropriated from a different culture entirely. Language and the creation of language was founded on appropriation, especially when it comes to written language. If we are to assume appropriation is wrong, every language currently would need to be stripped and we need to start over with pictograms and slowly create entirely different verbal, and written language so as to avoid any sort of appropriation.

Appropriation happens, especially when it comes to art and language and seeing as language was founded on art we can rightfully assume that language and its evolution is "appropriation".

Especially seeing as lesbians haven't stolen lesbos culture per say they're only following the language rules everyone else follows. So if lesbians are wrong, then everyone is inherently wrong. In fact everyone throughout history except for maybe cave people and sumerians in Mesopotamia are the only "clean" ones in this. And in fact, everyone since has appropriated their use of written communication.

Your logic doesn't lend itself to the evolution of language and thankfully no one has considered this to be true.

However, with your logic, any lesbian that can trace their lineage back to Greece could still technically use the label of "lesbian" and could thus have more say in the matter then you do because of their connection to said culture. From that point they could completely over ride your conjecture simply by saying "my ancestors would want this."

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The reason for bringing up r/GC and r/ActualLesbians was to point out that many women like to complain about people who they think aren't Lesbians using the word Lesbian. Clearly they understand the problem. If that doesn't apply to a particular woman because she hasn't said those things, then yes of course that point would not apply to her specifically, but it does still seem to be a popular sentiment. Women bringing up problems with people who are not female appropriating the word "woman" would be a still larger group, though of course yes it does not include all women.

I feel like I already addressed the points you're making about language. As I tried to explain, I don't think taking someone's name to mean something else is not the same thing as borrowing concepts and words for them and having general linguistic exchange. And I think most people and most women would agree with me here, that they would want people not to do that for their own names for themselves or their ethnicity or similar things.

And I wasn't saying a woman could use the word "Lesbian" if she experienced exclusively homosexual feeling and somehow could trace her linage to a particular Greek island even if quite distant. I think that only actual Lesbian women -- women who's family has been living on Lesbos for a long time, women who's family comes from Lesbos, perhaps women who've immigrated to Lesbos and become part of the community there.

It sounds like you're saying nobody would be right to complain if everyone suddenly decided that "Hawaiian" really meant "fan of Kūkahi," to the point that actual Hawaiians could no longer effectively use the word to talk about themselves, and nobody else could effectively use the word to talk about actual Hawaiians?

[–]teelo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

/u/magnora7 want to bring this post to your attention. You re-approved the OPs post only for the sub moderator to immediately remove it again.

1 day ago MaxinistaFemmeinista removed link "An Appeal" by ccccccc (remove)

1 day ago magnora7 approved link "An Appeal" by ccccccc (unspam)

1 day ago MaxinistaFemmeinista removed link "An Appeal" by ccccccc (remove)

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah now that they've taken themselves off of /all the issue is moot. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

yes I would really like to hear a comment from m7 about this.

[–]filbs111 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wait, there's an island of lesbians?

[–]bald-janitor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lesbos

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You might as well argue that the followers of jesus Christ should not call themselves Christian.

Lesbos was an island of LESBIANS who eventually traveled the world spreading and normalizing their love for women everywhere. If there really are any lesbians on the isle of lesbos complaining today, then they need to understand that their gay as fuck foremothers who were born on Lesbos, were the ones who were spreading the idea that for women to love other women is a good thing.

Why do I suspect that the people complaining on the internet, are just a bunch of transwomen and/or misogynists whose goal is to erase everything about women and lesbians? I looked at the picture in the article you linked, and it's a bunch of what is most likely heterosexual men. That's patriarchy in action

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I had only heard about Sappho and her poetry being connected to Lesbos, there was a whole society of homoerotic women there? I had thought that "lesbian" in this sense was a fairly recent thing. I had not heard anything about Sappho or Lesbian society promoting a specific ideology like Christianity does, did this really happen?

[–]tuesday 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If you look at the picture in the article you posted, who exactly is objecting to the term? it's a bunch of very conservative looking men. Why do you care what a bunch of men think about lesbianism? Would you march into a church and take it upon yourself to insist that because a bunch of atheists don't like it when followers of Christ refer to themselves as christians, that they need to call themselves something else? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

I had only heard about Sappho and her poetry being connected to Lesbos, there was a whole society of homoerotic women there? I had >thought that "lesbian" in this sense was a fairly recent thing.

er, lesbians have existed in all times and places whenever women are present. And where ever women gather, just as surely as night follows day, conservative men will try to control their behavior and usually while chanting "but we're just so concerned that you're doing things the way I want you to".

Try letting lesbians decided for themselves what they want to call themselves, in exactly the same way that you would allow the followers of Jesus Christ to call themselves Christian.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I didn't link it because of their opinions regarding female homoeroticism, I linked it because they're actual Lesbians, i.e. people from the island of Lesbos. I feel their idea of what "Lesbian" means should take precedence, since I'm not from Lesbos and they are.

And it's not just the people in the picture. Lesbians seem to have a hard time talking about themselves in general. News events regarding Lesbos seem harder to talk about. Like I tried to explain in OP, to me, it doesn't feel right to use it this way anymore.

[–]tuesday 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The picture which accompanies the article is a bunch of conservative men. Whom I'm pretty sure are not lesbian :-)

There are quite a few boys around the world named Jesus. Would you say they are appropriating the name of Jesus Christ? Would you take it upon yourself to tell them to stop using the name if an atheist objects?

I'm really confused as to why you think a bunch of conservative men should be in charge of how lesbians refer to themselves, can you explain?

[–]lmaonope333 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

the islanders are called lesbosans not lesbians so I dont see how it can be confused

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think this is not accurate. I think before the term was appropriated, "Lesbian" referred to Lesbos, things from Lesbos, etc. I have never heard the term "Lesbosan". This is what I see from wikipedia:

Before the mid-19th century, the word lesbian referred to any derivative or aspect of Lesbos, including a type of wine. (wikipedia)

[–]lmaonope333 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

so then it's not appropriative, as the Island of Lesbos was an important landmark for female gay culture

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I explained elsewhere in another comment, I think that would be like saying "true Hawaiians" are people who are fans of a particular Hawaiian singer. It seems like it would be appropriation in both cases, and would interfere with islanders from either islands being able to just go about their business using their own name.

I don't think there's anything wrong with admiring Sappho (it seems it's been a pretty popular activity since she came into existence!), and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to know more about where she came from. I just think actually appropriating the name isn't right.

[–]lmaonope333 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lesbians dont steal culture from the islanders, the word just evolved because of sappho, a homosexual female poet who wrote love poems about women who live on the islands

[–]lmaonope333 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

lesbians dont steal culture from the islanders, the word just evolved because of sappho, a homosexual poet who wrote love poems about women. she lived on that island. plus, the islanders are called lesbosans not lesbians so nobody with a half a brain would confuse them

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel I've already explained my perspective on this. However to add a comment on just one point of the statement here:

the islanders are called lesbosans not lesbians so nobody with a half a brain would confuse them

I think this is not accurate. I think before the term was appropriated, "Lesbian" referred to Lesbos, things from Lesbos, etc. I have never heard the term "Lesbosan". This is what I see from wikipedia:

Before the mid-19th century, the word lesbian referred to any derivative or aspect of Lesbos, including a type of wine. (wikipedia)