/s/AltRight_Memes has banned me, without explanation. Read on..

submitted by JasonCarswell from self.censorship

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Magnora, you know I've never had a problem with anyone here (or anyone here me, honestly.. I've only had positive interactions and conversations/debates in the last 4 months). But the negativity and shit-slinging really needs to stop.

I don't know much about Jason or his views, but I do agree with him about this:

"Yet you talk at me. You can't have both. If you don't want a discussion, don't talk. SaidIt is NOT about left and right - it's about anti-extremes. That post was clearly about taking it to absurd extremes."

I've noticed more and more, people are no longer ignoring things they don't like/aren't interested in, and instead they're attacking and insulting.

I've also noticed people are now discouraging discussion for petty one or two-liners. I really liked this site and thought it was a fit for me after years on Voat, but something is going wrong and the Pyramid of Debate is not being upheld imo :\ This whole thread is an example of that.

[–]magnora7 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I want it to be lessened as well, but how? I guess I can become more hard-nosed about applying the pyramid of debate, but that's just going to result in many bans and a lot of angry users saying they were banned unjustly... the shit-slinging is a form of attack against saidit, and I recognize it as such, but the attack works because it's hard to differentiate destructive shit-slinging from a normal user having a bad day.

If you were me, what would you do to resolve the negativity and shit-slinging? I'm open to hearing new tactics and ideas.

Part of me just thinks that maybe it's impossible not to have when we're trying to have the full spectrum of ideas here, there will be disagreements. And that's fine. But it's just a decorum issue, and I don't know how to force people to have good decorum.

I'm kind of thinking of maybe someday starting a second saidit-like website alongside saidit, but with very strict decorum rules. Like floor-of-the-senate levels of decorum. Similar to hackernews. Would there be interest in this? Then we can have the best of both worlds

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Hey! Sorry to interject here in between conversations. But I was browsing around looking for meaning... or something. Surfing basically. And having played different roles around saidit, as a general gun-slinger, productive participant and an overall nuisance with numerous account deletions.

I've gathered a bit of understanding from the issues here in maintaining etiquette, and wanted to throw out a quick tip if it could be of any benefit.

Your best bet might be to start from the ground-up in working with these problems, probably in the form of Education and re-enforcement with behavior and maybe some structural changes for self-referencing options. But of-course, it will take time to develop that protocol in a way that works.

Rather than getting ban heavy from the top down; which this place with mods and admins are not (thankfully!).

The challenges that you face are somewhere along these lines:

Factions that post extremist content, diverse audiences liable to get triggered upon extremist content, hence the muck-racking and people lapsing judgement due to a poor referencing for proper behavior.

A decent way to fill the gap might be with an education protocol that is both intensive or intuitive. Referenced quickly and repetitively in/on the site itself. In the form of like a (ewww I can't believe I'm about to say this:) Nanny or something as a voice of conscience built in. Because people go blank and will often lose themselves in the virtual over issues and half of your users are probably teenagers. You've seen it already.

How about an educational video that you have to watch pertaining to the pyramid of debate before receiving an account? Or include a creative test for it?

Or Having real examples of valid and invalid content that are encouraged/discouraged.

General tips of staying cool when in disagreement.

Some changes to the back-ground design template with a visible pyramid of debate? Encouraging objectivity and civility.

All that being said however, there still needs to be place for some humor- especially creative humor!

Like Why is Donald trump trying to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out when Newer Mexicans will be born inside it everyday, anyway! Hugh?

So overall, the site should seek to balance out extremes in posting, and in commenting through encouraged quick references on the site itself to maintain that order. Without compromises on liberty because abundance of self-resources is the key to freedom! Not the constraint of resources with defeated thinking.

And there needs to be more room for creative humor!

Like where did the one-legged waitress who self-identified as an attack helicopter, finally get employment after months of looking for a job to sustain her two children- Apache and Raptor, after kicking her drug habit?

Ihop.

Welp, I tried round here.. I ain't tellin' ya what to do but keep your ground level so everyone can be on your platform. Good luck! And see you on a different account perhaps.

Edit: Also, if none of that stuff works... fuck it, go hitler-stalin (Hitlin? Staler?) and ban everything or w/e. Pinging /u/d3rr in case he cares (Prolly not :P)

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful ideas! I think unfortunately the problem is not lack of awareness. Many people who act like that will do it even if they're perfectly aware they're doing it. Some (maybe even most) people do it with the intent of irritating others and upsetting the system. Most of the people we have problems with are like this, so programs that encourage awareness probably won't actually diminish the problem, and in fact might encourage more fighting as users will attempt to police each other's behavior more. So it's not a bad idea, but I think in a practice a different approach is needed.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

And from what I can assess, you eventually need better practices from users but I'll leave it to you to figure it out then. Good luck!

[–]magnora7 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

I had this same underestimation when I first came in to being a saidit admin.

However an additional consideration is that even if it is knee-jerk, sometimes making them aware of it still doesn't help, because they're angry in that very moment. This is an instance where I think like a 72 hour ban might be a good thing to have. We don't have the functionality of timer bans, but that is something we could potentially build someday.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I know, it's honestly a tough scenario.. I feel like if there isn't some form of password protection or secrecy, this is bound to happen on any discussion-based website that gains traction over time on the internet now. At first you mold the website, then the community it attracts molds it into what they want.

If I were in your shoes, to be honest, I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning (which is why I'm not the owner of a website like this lol). But if you go on a banning tirade, you'd risk your reputation and your website's reputation. Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would there be people who want to switch over? Use both? Would it be worth all the effort?

In vein of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites/access to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)? It could include maybe 5-10 SubSaidIt's modded by you and d3rr (the quality of users would be high, so drama would be low), the SubSaidIt's could be re-makes of the most popular SubSaidIt's on SaidIt's main-site (with the attractive point being, you get all of the same and potentially better content, minus the negativity and attacks), and included maybe a miscellaneous post section for discussing/sharing whatever? It's really the only thing I could think of, outside of your partner-website (which still, I'd be interested in).

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning

Not a bad idea, but how do you define that exactly? What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point? That's obviously not ban-worthy, but could be viewed as "creating conflict". You know what I mean? Is there a less subjective way to define what creating conflict means exactly? This is basically the intent of the pyramid of debate, to give us an objective metric to judge situations by. Maybe it's possible to create a "levels of causing conflict" which would be similar. Some types of causing conflict are more deliberate and harmful than others, and if there were some way of objectively evaluating that with a metric, then maybe this is a solvable problem.

Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would people want to switch over? Would it be worth all the effort?

Well the beautiful thing is that it wouldn't be much extra effort at all. We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke. And being admin for 2 sites is not that much different from being admin of 1 big site... Maybe I should do it. Some people might use both sites, who knows. Saidit wasn't much at first either, but now 2 years later...

In vain of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)?

Yeah that's not a bad idea, but honestly it might be easiest to have that on another website entirely rather than just one sub on this site. I'd rather it not be a "fringe" thing if possible, hidden in a private sub somewhere, I'd like it to be valued community that is front and center in its own domain.

Unfortunately karma screening is not a great way to keep out trolls, many will slow-play accounts to get past karma thresholds, and then start trolling. Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke.

In that case, I say go for it if you feel up to it! Like I said, I'd be interested, and if it doesn't take up too much time, it isn't really like you have much to lose.. I also get what you mean about wanting a valued, respected community over a fringe one.

Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

I like this idea a lot, it is a better idea than mine and I think if everything were to work out properly, be more rewarding.

As for conflict, this, I consider conflict: https://saidit.net/s/whatever/comments/24sa/netflix_recommendations_please/

I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got. I will admit I made a 4th rude comment in return, but it was petty so I removed it along with the thread. But if you're opting to make an extension of SaidIt, or a partner site to it that takes conversation more seriously and isn't as negative, I'm all for it.

I don't see any reason a person should be attacked for asking for media recommendations in an off-topic/whatever SubSaidIt.

What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point?

Two users disagreeing and debating or having a discussion, is not creating conflict - that's communication, even if there's a disagreement, you don't have to resort to attacks as they never get your point across anyway, they're just petty. I'm all for healthy conversations, debates and disagreements. But random attacks, or attacking someone because you don't agree with them? You're better off moving on/ignoring them.

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I know what you mean. Maybe we'll give the new website a try someday soon. I need a good name, and a domain that's available for less than $20/yr though... let me know if you have any ideas.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just discovered http://www.moot.com/ links to a YouTube video, so I guess that's taken, but there are lots of alternative domains.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=moot

[–]Jesus-Christ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got.

This is honestly why I don't really bother asking those types of questions anymore, some users respond with shitty negative responses for the sake of being shitty and negative. I've tried creating similiar discussion in the past, but most people ignore it and the ones that don't are there purely to be dickheads about it which is just unnecessary .

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The initial round of banning the shittiest users will be the worst. But if it's kept up, then that will surely change the character of SaidIt. If you ban the dynamic and interesting occasional offenders then you also risk neutering the character of SaidIt, possibly resulting in a bland site. However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

IMO, it's worth the risk to the reputation to shape up or ship out. Ideally done with an announcement and maybe clean slates for everyone. (An announcement section in the top right side bar would be a perfect place to link such an announcement post.)

If there was a second site, then there's be no risk to reputation. Didn't know about the Reddit "Lounge" (not to be confused with the Chat Lounge).

These VIP subs could have many pros but I can think of too many cons to bother listing.

Another thing Enza, that you may or may not be aware of, is their efforts to decentralize SaidIt. Goldfish(sp) is working on it. If SaidIt were federated then many people could host their own, and join whatever instances they liked or were invited to. Beyond that maybe someone might figure out a way to host SaidIt instances for people who would want to cultivate their own communities, including cutting out those not wanted. This might develop into bubble culture for many, yet for many others they could still co-mingle, pick and chose who they hang with, view reputations and Venn diagrams, etc. Also, in this way the VIP could be selected, like Tilde does.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

Dude, we're so pissed we're literally deleting our own accounts.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

LOL

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub. You can embrace, discard, or mull over all their suggestions on how to govern better. More brains is better. Doesn't mean you loose your clear vision.

Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

Maybe like stepping in the gutter or grey line might happen on occasion, those who dwell there can be asked to leave. Again, defining "dwelling" should be discussed too.

I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot. Hopefully it would minimize memes and such. I wouldn't be tempted to engage or preach or sling, and would likely migrate most of my efforts there. But IMO, it would be starting with a couple disabilities unless 1) there were clearly defined rules 2) with a democratic forum to discuss the governing. That doesn't mean you'd lose your ultimate power veto, it just means things can be discussed with hopes for effective improvements and evolutions.

Also, IMO, the subs should be voted upon - for their naming conventions, topic-worthiness, classifications, etc. to avoid repeats, unwise decisions, spontaneous impulses, and infinite empty or rarely used subs - if those are things to avoid.

All this and more could/should be discussed in a next-level sub about the potential and development of a spin off. Your code and administration are great, but your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub.

Many people have for a long time proposed many things and been promptly shut down based on subjective and unevenly applied feels. A lot of people were directly invited here by magnora through other sites (myself from listening to him on a podcast) and feel tricked after spending some time on the site and seeing how he admins it.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

"More rules won't work" -Pretty much /u/magnora7

Unless he has changed his stance, a suggestion of a site governed by rules, evenly applied demands to behaviour and respectful debate is really shady.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot.

That's probably the only time I've seen magnora come up with a suggestion that is based on evenly applied rules and that makes me very weary of it.

But I'm not going to deny that the user revolt that's been going on for the last few weeks could have convinced him that people aren't naturally inclined to behave, and more rules than "be nice" is required

Cautiously optimistic.

Your code and administration are great,

Code and customization of existing software solutions are top notch. Administration is more shit than a turd in a septic tank.

your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

Very well said!

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of people were directly invited here by magnora through other sites (myself from listening to him on a podcast) and feel tricked after spending some time on the site and seeing how he admins it.

I completely feel the same way. I came here from the Tin Foil Hat podcast with lots of conspirophilia and laughs. M7 explosively without warning threatened me in the summer for completely unfair, unclear, unsubstantiated and/or false reasons, and now I don't give much of a shit, whereas I was completely dedicated to SaidIt. I don't know what I did to irk him, and he hasn't explained it. Maybe he just doesn't want dynamic characters around. Maybe I legit did something. Maybe he's peacocking. Maybe he's stressed. I have no idea.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

Actually, that is in large part why I suggest it. Contain all the drama/sanitation work. BUT if it's ignored it will inevitably leak or maybe explode. IMO, it would be far easier to deal with all the drama in a tribunal of M7 + D3 + community opinion.

"More rules won't work" -Pretty much /u/magnora7

Maybe. Maybe not. If we don't discuss them we'll never know. Maybe we don't need rules. Maybe we need lots of examples, documented in a wiki, with links, to offenses, etc. A semi-permanent record of precedents to support the legitimacy of the Pyramid of Debate and the ever so few rules.

Unless he has changed his stance, a suggestion of a site governed by rules, evenly applied demands to behaviour and respectful debate is really shady.

Agreed. People keep using decorum as if there's an established definition - meanwhile there's certainly an abundance of decorum-free activity unpunished.

That's probably the only time I've seen magnora come up with a suggestion that is based on evenly applied rules and that makes me very weary of it.

Ya, I have my doubts too. He just told me I have two strikes. I don't remember a second one, and I certainly don't feel the summer one was even legitimately warranted. (Further, that sub with only one post was locked for months. That issue was swept under the rug and I got no day in court so to speak. It was his way or no way, in a "community".) And I think it's immature to be keeping strikes this long. I've been here for 14-15 months and apparently slipped twice in all that time, meaning the rest of my contributions are for shit, null and void, if I "slip" again, by his arbitrary discretion alone. Doesn't fill one with confidence in the leader, much less confidence for the future of this community of arbitrariness, ruled by a fear of becoming unpopular for enforcing site-wide rules.

But I'm not going to deny that the user revolt that's been going on for the last few weeks could have convinced him that people aren't naturally inclined to behave, and more rules than "be nice" is required

I totally missed that revolt. Do you mean the misguided efforts of Snow? I've seen waves of Reddit refugees and misbehavors come and go and/or acclimate. Is that what you mean?

Also, few people read the terms and rules of sites. Why bother when you can follow the abundance of examples? And what unenforced examples there are...

Cautiously optimistic.

Indeed.

Code and customization of existing software solutions are top notch. Administration is more shit than a turd in a septic tank.

LOL. I was trying to be nice and lumped them together. Ultimately, IMO, here's the problem... M7D3 are great guys, great truther wisdom, great skills, but not great leaders, yet could be. (Also, I am no leader and can admit it.) They have a fucking forum and don't even bother to ask for leadership assistance. WHAT? That would have been one of the first things I'd do!