The Death Of Free Speech: Zuckerberg Asks Governments For Instructions On 'What Discourse Should Be Allowed'

Tom_Bombadil · 2020-02-18T22:39:28+00:00

One would hope that this is the death of Facebook.

magnora7 · 2020-02-18T22:26:35+00:00

I'm surprised more cloudflare alternatives aren't popping up

DffrntDrmmr · 2020-02-18T19:02:33+00:00

I think the author of this article jumps to an erroneous conclusion based on a few innocuous comments by Zuckerberg.

By asking for clarity on government's expectation, won't that force them to debate what exactly is acceptable censorship? Better that than governments simply criticizing and threatening social media over comments of others which they should not be responsible. And it's a business reality that Facebook has to deal with these governments, who pressure them to serve as their censor.

I don't know much about Zuckerberg nor do I use Facebook, but I appreciate his stance against censorship. He says he's uncomfortable with the ever-growing list of forbidden words — I am, too.

Zuckerberg probably deserves more credit for resisting government and the politically-correct.

NIGGERJEW · 2020-02-03T09:12:11+00:00

Mag means his butthole is super wide and his dick super small. He's been deeked so if you wanna kill a jew you can, no problem, terorists are wide open and he is considered one spreading his nazi shit.

NIGGERJEW · 2020-02-03T09:10:32+00:00

MagNORA is a jew fag, Nora, get it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_candles

SocialismRulesU · 2020-02-03T08:17:34+00:00

I do advocate murder and violence on them, you will jsut get paid leave and a promotion.

SocialismRulesU · 2020-02-03T08:17:04+00:00

i will do this every 3 hours until time ends, bc fuck pedophiles.

Magson_Carnora · 2020-02-03T07:34:52+00:00

I'mma kill him, i hacked his shit and seen 200gb of pedo forn, nobody will care if he dies.

Magson_Carnora · 2020-02-03T07:31:41+00:00

cops said to delete it or i'll be arrested. Guess I can fuck kids now, maybe I'll come fuck magnoras kids, illegal to show pictures so i'll get away with it.

swordofdamocles42 · 2020-01-30T12:42:15+00:00

i've been using it for years.... i even bathe in it. it has a million uses. if i ever got cancer i would ingest it. my mothers copd is loads better from just a small amount.

Chipit · 2020-01-29T14:29:45+00:00

Whoa, congratulations to replying to a discussion that ended 3 months ago.

GreenCappy · 2020-01-29T13:45:47+00:00

When you're on the hard right, which you seems to be, anyone to the right of Adolf Hitler is a far left communist that wants totalitarianism.

GreenCappy · 2020-01-29T13:42:45+00:00

Educate-yourself ("The Freedom of Knowledge, The Power of Thought ©", all Orwellian names of course) is a green ink website of alternative medicine[1], pseudoscience[2], conspiracy theories,[3] UFOs,[4] Sylphs, and every other form of crankery under the sun.

Jesus · 2020-01-26T08:21:19+00:00

Not an argument. Stick to pyramid of debate.

fruitjack · 2020-01-25T16:15:47+00:00

deplatform the fuckers. they can go be nazis in the local gutter where they belong!

Penelope · 2020-01-24T00:42:43+00:00

If you can't win against their arguments, silence them?

steaknpotatoes · 2020-01-24T00:11:04+00:00

Who's "yall"? You don't know me or the people that agree with my position on this. The all or nothing crap is a really stupid approach from both sides and this is the perfect issue to show them both as hypocrites, they essentially switched sides on this issue. I would bet you wouldn't take the same "don't like the policies? don't use the platform" approach when it comes to restaurants or bakeries denying people for their sexuality or race, or how about net neutrality? Do you think drug companies, hospitals, EMTs should be allowed implement a conservatives only policy?

I've always believed in a well regulated market to prevent abuses, to protect our constitutional rights, to provide choice etc Monopolies, duopolies, and other captured markets of importance need regulating, and Youtube is essentially a major public forum.

Oh damn I just looked at your profile and you're one of those "everyone not on the far left is a nazi REEEEE" morons, seek help

fruitjack · 2020-01-23T22:39:51+00:00

take them all down. nothing of value was lost!

fruitjack · 2020-01-23T22:39:33+00:00

that's right, the state needs to seize the means of production!!! y'all are so pro capitalism until it's suddenly inconvenient. don't like the policies? don't use the platform. 'nuff said.

dittendatt · 2020-01-23T13:10:45+00:00

Because they have very successfully struck down any attempts at organization.

FormosaOolong · 2020-01-23T04:38:18+00:00

Dude, it was a turn of phrase. In no way was I or will I ever call for violence. Geez.

som_raisondetre · 2020-01-23T00:30:37+00:00

Rioting does not seem to be the best option after your neighborhood is burned down and the message you rioted for, ended up harming the wrong people.

Also, to touch on a sensitive topic and perspectives of maliciousness; when segments of the African American population rioted against perceived maltreatment; many people denigrated it (using their internet words) as a "chimp-out", as opposed to- fighting for their rights against abusers. And of-course, the supremacist state would always perceive counter actions that seek to do damage as needing "corrections" while further clamping down on individual liberties and possibly implement martial law for their own benefit.

So if you wanted chaos in the neighborhoods, people being harmed of their livelihoods and the military to get involved in possibly human rights violations; then continue. But if you do continue in the calls for violence, then you may also be an advocate or agent provocateur of CIA proportions!

Make your pick but the real question is: Is the CIA involved on saidit?^{^{probably^yes}}

FormosaOolong · 2020-01-22T23:50:17+00:00

Stockholm syndrome ~~maybe~~

d3rr · 2020-01-22T22:55:05+00:00

Stockholm syndrome maybe.

steaknpotatoes · 2020-01-22T22:00:59+00:00

They should be ruled as a public forum, they should have to be neutral on free speech. It's wrong to allow biased corporations to control our speech.

black_hole_son · 2020-01-22T21:43:26+00:00

Agreed the way the GoP and Trump have treated honest hard working Americans is fucking disgusting!

NZSIS · 2020-01-22T21:31:31+00:00

That's a good thing.

giveuptheghost · 2020-01-22T19:15:16+00:00

Technology has outpaced lawmaking. Social media has become incredibly important to political discourse. I just hope these tech monopolies will be held accountable in the future for interfering in politics.

AnarchySpeach · 2020-01-22T17:53:43+00:00

Twitter and Facebook control the mindless outrage of the public. They're not against this, so there's no call to action.

FormosaOolong · 2020-01-22T17:49:49+00:00

Why America is not rioting in the streets for this and countless other bald-faced abuses is beyond me.

FormosaOolong · 2020-01-22T17:48:36+00:00

How is this a Thing? WHat the hell is wrong with these asshats trying to control--and manufacture--the narrative!?!?

AnarchySpeach · 2020-01-22T17:43:00+00:00

They're not even hiding their intentions.

Their lack of shame is amazing.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-19T18:30:37+00:00

That's not what he said.

But you are correct in the "us vs them" tribalism, and much like SJWs, means that centrists, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, progressives, anarchists, totalitarians, truthers, fakenewsers, etc are also "them" to his tribe, whatever he defines it as.

xigoi · 2020-01-19T08:17:16+00:00

So there are only two kinds of people, extreme rightists and SJWs? Now you're thinking the same way as SJWs.

Horrux · 2020-01-18T22:01:45+00:00

Me too! But NOT off Amazon. ;-)

a_man_a_plan_pancake · 2020-01-18T19:53:03+00:00

Thank you Amazon, I'd never heard of the book without your censorship. Going to buy a copy now.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-18T00:04:30+00:00

Reposted:
/s/canada/comments/25sx/repost_amazon_canada_deletes_70_customer_reviews/
/s/censorship/comments/25nr/amazon_canada_deletes_70_customer_reviews_of/

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:39:03+00:00

don't need to ask you, you'll just tell everyone anyway.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:37:10+00:00

easy.

you are an attention seeking drama queen faggot.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:35:58+00:00

How do you define slinging shit

by saying "i sling poop", as you did.

...and straight into the tmi attention seeking.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:29:39+00:00

from bestiality, to scat, now to piss.

Oh Vey

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:24:14+00:00

it may not just be about jason, but it certainly IS about him as well.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T22:23:53+00:00

You see it as me being a dick, I see it as me caring about you. what to do?

Enza · 2020-01-17T20:42:47+00:00

No, I asked for people to share their favorite series and movies that are on Netflix (as I don't own cable) with me as recommendations, and you said:

"Delete Netflix.

Your mind is not subtle enough to resist the constant attacks on it woven through their programming.

If there is a movie or show that you want to watch after reading reviews - then pirate them

asking on a free speech site for recommendations on what to headfuck yourself with will always get replies like mine."

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether I should keep or delete Netflix (or your opinion on "head-fucking"), or for you to comment on my "mind and it's ability to resist programming". And pirating movies and shows has nothing to do with the topic either (it's actually illegal and against SaidIt's ToS), since I'm looking for recommendations on what shows/movies to watch since I know of none that are good at the moment.

"fuck off with your superior bullshit."

You can pretend, but that's exactly what you did in my thread; came in with your superior bullshit that was completely uncalled for. There's a difference between exercising free speech and being a dick for no reason.

magnora7 · 2020-01-17T18:29:12+00:00

Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

I had this same underestimation when I first came in to being a saidit admin.

However an additional consideration is that even if it is knee-jerk, sometimes making them aware of it still doesn't help, because they're angry in that very moment. This is an instance where I think like a 72 hour ban might be a good thing to have. We don't have the functionality of timer bans, but that is something we could potentially build someday.

chkurbias · 2020-01-17T16:09:33+00:00

Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

And from what I can assess, you eventually need better practices from users but I'll leave it to you to figure it out then. Good luck!

magnora7 · 2020-01-17T16:02:09+00:00

Thanks for the thoughtful ideas! I think unfortunately the problem is not lack of awareness. Many people who act like that will do it even if they're perfectly aware they're doing it. Some (maybe even most) people do it with the intent of irritating others and upsetting the system. Most of the people we have problems with are like this, so programs that encourage awareness probably won't actually diminish the problem, and in fact might encourage more fighting as users will attempt to police each other's behavior more. So it's not a bad idea, but I think in a practice a different approach is needed.

chkurbias · 2020-01-17T15:45:40+00:00

Hey! Sorry to interject here in between conversations. But I was browsing around looking for meaning... or something. Surfing basically. And having played different roles around saidit, as a general gun-slinger, productive participant and an overall nuisance with numerous account deletions.

I've gathered a bit of understanding from the issues here in maintaining etiquette, and wanted to throw out a quick tip if it could be of any benefit.

Your best bet might be to start from the ground-up in working with these problems, probably in the form of Education and re-enforcement with behavior and maybe some structural changes for self-referencing options. But of-course, it will take time to develop that protocol in a way that works.

Rather than getting ban heavy from the top down; which this place with mods and admins are not (thankfully!).

The challenges that you face are somewhere along these lines:

Factions that post extremist content, diverse audiences liable to get triggered upon extremist content, hence the muck-racking and people lapsing judgement due to a poor referencing for proper behavior.

A decent way to fill the gap might be with an education protocol that is both intensive or intuitive. Referenced quickly and repetitively in/on the site itself. In the form of like a (ewww I can't believe I'm about to say this:) Nanny or something as a voice of conscience built in. Because people go blank and will often lose themselves in the virtual over issues and half of your users are probably teenagers. You've seen it already.

How about an educational video that you have to watch pertaining to the pyramid of debate before receiving an account? Or include a creative test for it?

Or Having real examples of valid and invalid content that are encouraged/discouraged.

General tips of staying cool when in disagreement.

Some changes to the back-ground design template with a visible pyramid of debate? Encouraging objectivity and civility.

All that being said however, there still needs to be place for some humor- especially creative humor!

Like Why is Donald trump trying to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out when Newer Mexicans will be born inside it everyday, anyway! Hugh?

So overall, the site should seek to balance out extremes in posting, and in commenting through encouraged quick references on the site itself to maintain that order. Without compromises on liberty because abundance of self-resources is the key to freedom! Not the constraint of resources with defeated thinking.

And there needs to be more room for creative humor!

Like where did the one-legged waitress who self-identified as an attack helicopter, finally get employment after months of looking for a job to sustain her two children- Apache and Raptor, after kicking her drug habit?

Ihop.

Welp, I tried round here.. I ain't tellin' ya what to do but keep your ground level so everyone can be on your platform. Good luck! And see you on a different account perhaps.

Edit: Also, if none of that stuff works... fuck it, go hitler-stalin (Hitlin? Staler?) and ban everything or w/e. Pinging /u/d3rr in case he cares (Prolly not :P)

magnora7 · 2020-01-17T14:10:10+00:00

Yes but again the mod banned another user at the same time too, so it's not just about jason

RuckFeddit · 2020-01-17T14:04:50+00:00

I'm glad we agree regarding the drama man. Far too easy to get caught up in and in the end you'll achieve 0.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T13:36:07+00:00

contempt for government corruption...

The BEST POST I've seen in days, weeks, maybe months!!! Bringing me back on target away from the drama. Thank you!

RuckFeddit · 2020-01-17T12:43:51+00:00

If you're trying to bring it to the center by using media coined phrases like "alt-right" you're destined to fail. These supposed "political beliefs" were designed to split the left and right even further. What's the one thing that can unite both? contempt for government corruption, the Israeli government and the power AIPAC holds in the US along with their sway with the rest of the world. The alt-right was specifically painted as irrationally hating all foreign races for a reason, along with the left being presented as being psychotically obsessed with racial diversity. The left and right used to align on certain issues, such as Israel, but now they hate eachother so much, even more than their puppet masters, because of race politics being pushed HARD from 2012 or so onwards (cops shooting supposedly innocent black men etc.)

Consequently Israel has vanished from the narrative now, closing potential discourse that could merge the bubbles people have been carefully split into.

The left and the right both want one thing, to remove corruption, the current elite and to re-establish order.

These groups (alt-right, ultra-left) are more often than not either controlled opposition, paid posters or ideologues. We should interact with neither and hopefully this fad will die because otherwise you're promoting the divide and conquer operation even more. The vast majority of natural people involved in political discourse (shitposting on facebook) now have only really been active in it since the race politics shit began again (2012/2013/2014), so their view is totally skewed. That goes for boomers, who were even later to the party and zoomers. They've never had their moments of clarity, never seen how they got caught up in an idea and refused to acknowledge facts. These people have to learn eventually, and even just some of them coming to the revelation that the entire system is designed to control and crush them could have a majorly positive influence on our future.

Also a centrist btw.

To add: I hate the boomer vs zoomer vs millenial nonsense, it wasn't meant in a derogatory way. Just an easy way to describe the voting groups.

Jesus-Christ · 2020-01-17T11:42:08+00:00

I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got.

This is honestly why I don't really bother asking those types of questions anymore, some users respond with shitty negative responses for the sake of being shitty and negative. I've tried creating similiar discussion in the past, but most people ignore it and the ones that don't are there purely to be dickheads about it which is just unnecessary .

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T08:01:14+00:00

Seeing as I wasn't talking to you, yet you insist upon thrusting your lewd intercourse between our shared steamy words, would you admit there's some irony when you say, "mind your own business"?

For someone who doesn't want to hear about my weird cuck fetishes, you sure do talk about them a lot. Are you living vicariously through my real life adventures and funderful sexcapades? Hawt.

Also, what does "(((rethink)))" mean? Is that related to or like (((the Jews)))? Or does that mean (((something else)))? Regardless, if you rethink something you might just learn something new upon a second review. Your loss if you don't.

bald-janitor · 2020-01-17T07:38:52+00:00

We don't want to (((rethink))), mind your own business and stop discussing your weird fetishes cuck

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T06:47:49+00:00

We're all hypocrites in countless ways. You seem to be the only one I see stalking me and pissing everywhere.

Chipit · 2020-01-17T06:29:30+00:00

It's hilarious to watch you people witch-hunt. You seriously can't tell the difference between ESL and native speakers?

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T06:24:35+00:00

I honestly appreciate the feedback. I've asked and you're the first to bother.

I won't deny that I posted this thing the other day, or that I happened to be one of the first to comment on the other one today. I feel strongly about the ideas, as I do about many things. I had no idea they would blow up, as most stuff simply goes ignored. Maybe that's a blind spot for me, determining what will be hot or not. If I had known a better way of presenting my ideas I would have applied that. I don't regret anything I said as it was all honest and authentic except for one inaccurate statement which has now been corrected.

I wasn't thinking of the subs as houses. I was thinking of SaidIt as a community and /s/All is the heart of our community. Not everything I've been sharing is critical, but some obviously is, and those weren't entered upon lightly. I'm also not one to graffiti a shitpost and split because I'm there to discuss why I'm making the effort.

Maybe I'm just a fool trying to stop Niagara Falls. Maybe I'm trying to do something where the admins won't. Maybe they have unexpressed reasons why they won't. Maybe SaidIt is for preaching activism and not being active. I think it's better than that.

Or maybe you mean that SaidIt is the house that I should dare not criticize, constructively or otherwise? If that is the case, I'd sure like to know it. I aim to be helpful. I try to communicate clearly. I suspect I fail far more than I can know, due to the curse of keyboards without facial expressions. I can't read minds, so I just don't know and won't know unless I get feedback.

I'm not afraid to get stung should I get entangled, but if the wasp is sentient, I expect legit explanations, especially if I was trying to help the nest, was civil about it, and no one was unjustly harmed in the process.

As always, I like your optimism. Sadly, I honestly don't feel free to play and haven't since the summer. I was hoping I could get past that. Turns out I was not the only one with unresolved issues, mysterious as they are.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T05:39:25+00:00

How do you define slinging shit? Does name-calling count? Does being judgmental count?

I've never said I had a scat fetish. In all honesty, it's a huge turn off. Anal sex is a last desperate resort, just as fat chicks and dudes are, as are people who fart. However, farting and barfing is funny as hell - just as long as it's far from my nose.

I'm not a tranny. Though at a Burning Man wedding I was the only one in a wedding dress (among the half dozen times I wore a dress in fun). I've know many. Even had one in Montréal, named Kiki, hot as hell, more than most chicks.

My dick is just short of 8 inches, since you asked. I always hoped for the nice round number 8, to get a tattoo. A tattoo that says "7.75" doesn't carry the same weight. Give my your email and I'll send some pics.

There is no volume on SaidIt. Few feel the need to respond as prolifically as you do, so I suspect you like being my audience. As far as my inclination to openness goes, it hasn't changed since I've been on SaidIt, and I've been dynamic like this for decades. I've been lucky to have had a rich life.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T05:25:59+00:00

Then what is the game, and what's your next move, friend?

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T05:24:01+00:00

Depends on your definition.

I prefer women. Most would call that straight.

I've "stooped" to settle for others, because I was horny and/or lonely. I'd say my ratio is at least 10 women to 1 dude - but really that depends on what you consider "sexual activity". I don't kiss dudes. If you simply consider intimacy, ie. kissing, then that ratio would likely be >30 to 1.

Kill someone and they are always a murderer. Some see homosexuality in a similar light. Fuck a dude once in a lifetime among thousands of women fuckings and you might still consider him gay.

What if you're sexually abused as a boy by a man? Does that make you homo-for-life too?

So what's your definition?

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-17T05:10:00+00:00

Actually, this sub is all about "censorship". I'm mod of /s/Sex. I'm always on topic. Ask me and I'll tell you all about it.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T04:01:20+00:00

admit what? That you are a pointless troll with no reason to exist but piss people off and claim the moral high ground?

FormosaOolong · 2020-01-17T03:39:57+00:00

Though you didn't ask me, may I suggest you take responsibility for your part in all these blow-ups? By responsibility I do not mean "blame"--I mean take a look at the way you are going into peoples' houses and telling them how much you don't like their house or the way they keep it.

Free speech means you are not persecuted for your views; it doesn't mean saying what you want whenever you want with no regard for the circumstance. When you start shaking the wasp's nest, expect to get stung.

It might be a good idea to simply lick your wounds and go play in the sunnier spots of this bright atmosphere.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:34:38+00:00

not my sub, but i sure hope the mod is listening.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:33:30+00:00

sure, we have to prevent the echo chambers, but Jason set out to be a dick, sexualised a subject for no good reason and just shat all over the place. (by his own admission). His 'woe is me victim' post was obviously something he was aiming to be able to write.

He's a fucking troll

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:23:18+00:00

so you support the trolling of a sub by a sexual deviant?

Whatever, Magnora. JC deserved his ban, he's trash

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:21:52+00:00

I didn't say I wasn't slinging poop.

You explicitly said that you were slinging shit, so true.

I don't sling shit. Ever. Not my style. You re the one with the scat fetsih, to add to your general deviance.

even here, its all about sex. I get the feeling you are either a tranny, or have a very small penis. No one who is sexually active and happy with their adult time feels the need to broadcast it quite so loudly as you do.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:20:01+00:00

this isn't chess, and the game has only just started, faggot

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:18:53+00:00

"I'm not a faggot,"

Except you'd happily have a threesome not caring about what sex the people are....

nohomo, honest.

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:18:00+00:00

your sexual activity is ALWAYS off topic

bobbobbybob · 2020-01-17T03:17:37+00:00

I didn't 'sling shit' at all. I responded for your request for recommendations by giving you two:

Don't watch Netflix, for their mindfuckery is subtle and If you find a good show based on reviews, pirate it.

Totally on topic and answering your question.

d3rr · 2020-01-16T22:41:58+00:00

Yeah the inconsistency needed to be addressed for sure.

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T21:12:29+00:00

Alright, we can try it out and if it sucks we can change the part about /s/all, not a huge deal. I'm just trying to be consistent with what IP2 and incels have already done, more or less, just putting it in to writing.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T21:06:05+00:00

A lot of people were directly invited here by magnora through other sites (myself from listening to him on a podcast) and feel tricked after spending some time on the site and seeing how he admins it.

I completely feel the same way. I came here from the Tin Foil Hat podcast with lots of conspirophilia and laughs. M7 explosively without warning threatened me in the summer for completely unfair, unclear, unsubstantiated and/or false reasons, and now I don't give much of a shit, whereas I was completely dedicated to SaidIt. I don't know what I did to irk him, and he hasn't explained it. Maybe he just doesn't want dynamic characters around. Maybe I legit did something. Maybe he's peacocking. Maybe he's stressed. I have no idea.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

Actually, that is in large part why I suggest it. Contain all the drama/sanitation work. BUT if it's ignored it will inevitably leak or maybe explode. IMO, it would be far easier to deal with all the drama in a tribunal of M7 + D3 + community opinion.

"More rules won't work" -Pretty much /u/magnora7

Maybe. Maybe not. If we don't discuss them we'll never know. Maybe we don't need rules. Maybe we need lots of examples, documented in a wiki, with links, to offenses, etc. A semi-permanent record of precedents to support the legitimacy of the Pyramid of Debate and the ever so few rules.

Unless he has changed his stance, a suggestion of a site governed by rules, evenly applied demands to behaviour and respectful debate is really shady.

Agreed. People keep using decorum as if there's an established definition - meanwhile there's certainly an abundance of decorum-free activity unpunished.

That's probably the only time I've seen magnora come up with a suggestion that is based on evenly applied rules and that makes me very weary of it.

Ya, I have my doubts too. He just told me I have two strikes. I don't remember a second one, and I certainly don't feel the summer one was even legitimately warranted. (Further, that sub with only one post was locked for months. That issue was swept under the rug and I got no day in court so to speak. It was his way or no way, in a "community".) And I think it's immature to be keeping strikes this long. I've been here for 14-15 months and apparently slipped twice in all that time, meaning the rest of my contributions are for shit, null and void, if I "slip" again, by his arbitrary discretion alone. Doesn't fill one with confidence in the leader, much less confidence for the future of this community of arbitrariness, ruled by a fear of becoming unpopular for enforcing site-wide rules.

But I'm not going to deny that the user revolt that's been going on for the last few weeks could have convinced him that people aren't naturally inclined to behave, and more rules than "be nice" is required

I totally missed that revolt. Do you mean the misguided efforts of Snow? I've seen waves of Reddit refugees and misbehavors come and go and/or acclimate. Is that what you mean?

Also, few people read the terms and rules of sites. Why bother when you can follow the abundance of examples? And what unenforced examples there are...

Cautiously optimistic.

Indeed.

Code and customization of existing software solutions are top notch. Administration is more shit than a turd in a septic tank.

LOL. I was trying to be nice and lumped them together. Ultimately, IMO, here's the problem... M7D3 are great guys, great truther wisdom, great skills, but not great leaders, yet could be. (Also, I am no leader and can admit it.) They have a fucking forum and don't even bother to ask for leadership assistance. WHAT? That would have been one of the first things I'd do!

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T20:28:32+00:00

d3rr · 2020-01-16T20:27:59+00:00

I'm still on the fence about requiring hiding from /s/all. The rule reads clearly though.

audoban · 2020-01-16T19:47:21+00:00

If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub.

Many people have for a long time proposed many things and been promptly shut down based on subjective and unevenly applied feels. A lot of people were directly invited here by magnora through other sites (myself from listening to him on a podcast) and feel tricked after spending some time on the site and seeing how he admins it.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

"More rules won't work" -Pretty much /u/magnora7

Unless he has changed his stance, a suggestion of a site governed by rules, evenly applied demands to behaviour and respectful debate is really shady.

Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot.

That's probably the only time I've seen magnora come up with a suggestion that is based on evenly applied rules and that makes me very weary of it.

But I'm not going to deny that the user revolt that's been going on for the last few weeks could have convinced him that people aren't naturally inclined to behave, and more rules than "be nice" is required

Cautiously optimistic.

Your code and administration are great,

Code and customization of existing software solutions are top notch. Administration is more shit than a turd in a septic tank.

your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

Very well said!

audoban · 2020-01-16T19:34:07+00:00

However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

Dude, we're so pissed we're literally deleting our own accounts.

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T19:11:36+00:00

Here's the mod rule I just added. I changed 4 to 4a, and then added 4b:

4a) Mods cannot remove user comments that are both in good faith and on-topic.

4b) Mods CAN remove opposing opinions that are high on the pyramid of debate, and ban those users on that sub, if and only if the 2 following conditions are met: 1: The fact the sub removes opposing opinions is announced in the sub's sidebar. 2: The mods uncheck the sub setting "allow this sub to appear on /all"

What do you think?

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T19:03:56+00:00

I just discovered http://www.moot.com/ links to a YouTube video, so I guess that's taken, but there are lots of alternative domains.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=moot

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T18:53:20+00:00

Alright we'll give it a try then. Maybe once we get the similar 'show on /new' sub checkbox, we can add it to that same rule

d3rr · 2020-01-16T18:52:11+00:00

Fine with me, I donno what's best. This is the old "changing topics with sub rules" discussion from the mod rules launch.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T18:40:43+00:00

The initial round of banning the shittiest users will be the worst. But if it's kept up, then that will surely change the character of SaidIt. If you ban the dynamic and interesting occasional offenders then you also risk neutering the character of SaidIt, possibly resulting in a bland site. However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

IMO, it's worth the risk to the reputation to shape up or ship out. Ideally done with an announcement and maybe clean slates for everyone. (An announcement section in the top right side bar would be a perfect place to link such an announcement post.)

If there was a second site, then there's be no risk to reputation. Didn't know about the Reddit "Lounge" (not to be confused with the Chat Lounge).

These VIP subs could have many pros but I can think of too many cons to bother listing.

Another thing Enza, that you may or may not be aware of, is their efforts to decentralize SaidIt. Goldfish(sp) is working on it. If SaidIt were federated then many people could host their own, and join whatever instances they liked or were invited to. Beyond that maybe someone might figure out a way to host SaidIt instances for people who would want to cultivate their own communities, including cutting out those not wanted. This might develop into bubble culture for many, yet for many others they could still co-mingle, pick and chose who they hang with, view reputations and Venn diagrams, etc. Also, in this way the VIP could be selected, like Tilde does.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T18:11:58+00:00

If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub. You can embrace, discard, or mull over all their suggestions on how to govern better. More brains is better. Doesn't mean you loose your clear vision.

Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

Maybe like stepping in the gutter or grey line might happen on occasion, those who dwell there can be asked to leave. Again, defining "dwelling" should be discussed too.

I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot. Hopefully it would minimize memes and such. I wouldn't be tempted to engage or preach or sling, and would likely migrate most of my efforts there. But IMO, it would be starting with a couple disabilities unless 1) there were clearly defined rules 2) with a democratic forum to discuss the governing. That doesn't mean you'd lose your ultimate power veto, it just means things can be discussed with hopes for effective improvements and evolutions.

Also, IMO, the subs should be voted upon - for their naming conventions, topic-worthiness, classifications, etc. to avoid repeats, unwise decisions, spontaneous impulses, and infinite empty or rarely used subs - if those are things to avoid.

All this and more could/should be discussed in a next-level sub about the potential and development of a spin off. Your code and administration are great, but your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

littharass · 2020-01-16T18:01:26+00:00

I don't like to see you stirring drama like you are.

But bbbbbobo's actual harassment sub is just fine and dandy?

https://saidit.net/s/retards/

The absolute state of hypocrisy of the saidit admins smh

/u/d3rr

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T17:53:51+00:00

Also, proof that I am neither:

I am an admin on InfoGalactic.com, a site owned by Vox Day, an alt-right leader.

I am also active in my local Green Party and mod of /s/GreenParty with plans to bring in my local folks onto SaidIt.

I am also co-mod of /s/altrightwebm, but admittedly just to add my CSS and a banner. (But my interest in investing in SaidIt with CSS, banners, wiki, etc. has waned a fuck-tonne since magnora7 threatened me, and continues to, while allowing authentic trolls to roam freely.)

I'm also an honorary member of CorbettReport.com, an anarchist/voluntarist.

I'm anti-establishment and against all the prescribed doctrines and politics in the world. I try use the tools above and more, in order to resist the corporatocracy.

Froglich · 2020-01-16T17:48:51+00:00

We're old friends. ;-)

Froglich · 2020-01-16T17:47:59+00:00

Isn't barging in to other people's platforms to harass them called harassment?

When you've got nothing to offer but deliberately provoking a disgust reaction, who does that reflect negatively on?

This is bad comedy.

REMINDER: Chipit is a confirmed shill, and is the same character as "SNOW".

He's a self-hating incel, who is here to disrupt. Chipit is a hypocrite with zero credibility.

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T17:45:51+00:00

Yeah I know what you mean. Maybe we'll give the new website a try someday soon. I need a good name, and a domain that's available for less than $20/yr though... let me know if you have any ideas.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T17:32:18+00:00

It would be nice if the pyramid of debate applied universally. Every "downward" response I gave wasn't invented from nowhere.

Looking back it's extremely easy to say, "Oh, I should have stopped there and been the bigger person," to the many who felt they needed to pile on.

In the moment I'm just replying in kind, sometimes in defense, occasionally to challenge their stances, and often to try to help them rethink things if they're capable. I wasn't thinking about accumulating drama - which is never done alone. But I can make an effort to consider the grander scheme.

I didn't start antagonizing people. The opposite. I don't know what you mean by gross non-sequiturs.

As far as "creating drama", that's a broad concept. I was unbanned. Many folks learned more about the mod rules and other SaidIt norms. And a new policy is under consideration. Some good things have happened here. Drama happens. It's seeded, and sometimes nurtured, but not really created. I certainly don't do this every day, every week, or every month, so it's hardly a habit much less strategy. If I could predict it I could certainly try to stop it.

I do abide the pyramid. And I'll try to keep your points in mind.

Enza · 2020-01-16T17:31:14+00:00

We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke.

In that case, I say go for it if you feel up to it! Like I said, I'd be interested, and if it doesn't take up too much time, it isn't really like you have much to lose.. I also get what you mean about wanting a valued, respected community over a fringe one.

Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

I like this idea a lot, it is a better idea than mine and I think if everything were to work out properly, be more rewarding.

As for conflict, this, I consider conflict: https://saidit.net/s/whatever/comments/24sa/netflix_recommendations_please/

I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got. I will admit I made a 4th rude comment in return, but it was petty so I removed it along with the thread. But if you're opting to make an extension of SaidIt, or a partner site to it that takes conversation more seriously and isn't as negative, I'm all for it.

I don't see any reason a person should be attacked for asking for media recommendations in an off-topic/whatever SubSaidIt.

What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point?

Two users disagreeing and debating or having a discussion, is not creating conflict - that's communication, even if there's a disagreement, you don't have to resort to attacks as they never get your point across anyway, they're just petty. I'm all for healthy conversations, debates and disagreements. But random attacks, or attacking someone because you don't agree with them? You're better off moving on/ignoring them.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T17:07:54+00:00

They are alt-right. I'm neither, but label everyone not in their tribe as ultra-left. I was trying to bring it back to center. And failed evidently.

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T17:05:48+00:00

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning

Not a bad idea, but how do you define that exactly? What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point? That's obviously not ban-worthy, but could be viewed as "creating conflict". You know what I mean? Is there a less subjective way to define what creating conflict means exactly? This is basically the intent of the pyramid of debate, to give us an objective metric to judge situations by. Maybe it's possible to create a "levels of causing conflict" which would be similar. Some types of causing conflict are more deliberate and harmful than others, and if there were some way of objectively evaluating that with a metric, then maybe this is a solvable problem.

Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would people want to switch over? Would it be worth all the effort?

Well the beautiful thing is that it wouldn't be much extra effort at all. We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke. And being admin for 2 sites is not that much different from being admin of 1 big site... Maybe I should do it. Some people might use both sites, who knows. Saidit wasn't much at first either, but now 2 years later...

In vain of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)?

Yeah that's not a bad idea, but honestly it might be easiest to have that on another website entirely rather than just one sub on this site. I'd rather it not be a "fringe" thing if possible, hidden in a private sub somewhere, I'd like it to be valued community that is front and center in its own domain.

Unfortunately karma screening is not a great way to keep out trolls, many will slow-play accounts to get past karma thresholds, and then start trolling. Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

RuckFeddit · 2020-01-16T16:54:33+00:00

This "alt-right" vs. "ultra left" nonsense. You look like morons.

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T16:52:31+00:00

Stop creating drama? Stop antagonizing other people? Stop posting gross non-sequiturs? Follow the pyramid of debate?

Those would be great starting points.

Enza · 2020-01-16T16:50:07+00:00

I know, it's honestly a tough scenario.. I feel like if there isn't some form of password protection or secrecy, this is bound to happen on any discussion-based website that gains traction over time on the internet now. At first you mold the website, then the community it attracts molds it into what they want.

If I were in your shoes, to be honest, I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning (which is why I'm not the owner of a website like this lol). But if you go on a banning tirade, you'd risk your reputation and your website's reputation. Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would there be people who want to switch over? Use both? Would it be worth all the effort?

In vein of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites/access to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)? It could include maybe 5-10 SubSaidIt's modded by you and d3rr (the quality of users would be high, so drama would be low), the SubSaidIt's could be re-makes of the most popular SubSaidIt's on SaidIt's main-site (with the attractive point being, you get all of the same and potentially better content, minus the negativity and attacks), and included maybe a miscellaneous post section for discussing/sharing whatever? It's really the only thing I could think of, outside of your partner-website (which still, I'd be interested in).

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T16:49:33+00:00

What do you propose I do?

magnora7 · 2020-01-16T16:45:41+00:00

will glom on to the most salacious and controversial tidbit and steer it into the side of a mountain of crap to mud-wrestle until distracted by the next feeding frenzy.

Yeah you're the one doing this the most out of anyone on this entire website, hence the strikes. This is the entire reason we have the pyramid of debate.

JasonCarswell · 2020-01-16T16:41:59+00:00

I simply hadn't considered just contacting you alone. It's that simple.

I'm still unjustly banned from /s/Incels after mentioning it MANY times, to no avail. Further, you're simply not approachable. I've asked you many things and been ignored or been unsatisfactorily responded to. I'm totally okay with that, as I know you have a tremendous amount on your plate with mammoth responsibilities and better things to do. But it's not all about you or me, and that's also why I opened it up for community discussion and awareness. Sure, yours is the ultimate opinion on this site, but others have valuable insights too, and where you might be absent (and I can't read minds), maybe others might be able to weigh in and fill me in on things I may not have considered, especially when occasionally playing around and pushing a few buttons in a seemingly unbridled sea of name calling and shit posting (which you'll have a hard time finding from me).

Getting constructive criticism rarely comes without the excessive drama, something you'd think I'd have learned by now. That's why my intentions and actions aren't perfectly aligned on target.

If I'm banned from anywhere else I'd like to know about it, not because I plan to post there, but for the principle of freedom against unjust bans. Maybe I might even deserve it on a sub one day, and I can handle that, if I were to break their stated rules.

It's this principle that made me think it was worth posting and sharing. And you even came up with an interesting new policy (potentially) that IMO might help SaidIt tremendously. That didn't come from nowhere.

As far as all this attention goes, it was not my goal for it to explode. I expected this to be ignored as much as the dozens of far more important or entertaining things I've posted with more effort put into them. Had they been noticed, perhaps I wouldn't have employed all the click-baitery (ie. the squirrel).

I am guilty of this: I am naive and foolish to not realize by now that people, including SaidIt, will glom on to the most salacious and controversial tidbit and steer it into the side of a mountain of crap to mud-wrestle until distracted by the next feeding frenzy.

censorship

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