all 6 comments

[–]DffrntDrmmr 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

While I don't think NATO will dissolve in the foreseeable future, it will suffer further strain if Trump is re-elected for another four years. If left to Trump's whim (and the Russophiles who have largely influenced him for many years), then NATO might be doomed. But it's key value to the present-day world order should survive Trump's insider attacks.

It's trendy now, since the conclusion of the Moeller investigation, to dismiss Russia's influence on Trump, but what was learned was that many in his inner circle had connections to Moscow. His original manager (Paul Manafort), the one he used to walk the halls with in Trump Tower, was also the manager who got a Kremlin-plant elected to Ukraine's presidency (which led to a citizens revolt, resulting in him fleeing to Moscow).

There were over 20 pro-Kremlin Trump campaign associates, a handful of whom ended up being forced to resign their positions or were convicted of crimes.

Trump's foreign policy decisions have remained consistently in parallel with the objectives of Russian foreign policy, including the weakening and eventual dismantling of NATO.

Though Trump has created discord within the free-world's security institution and wondered aloud why it even exists, I think he realizes he can't simply make it go away for Russia. So, he'll keep whittling away when he can.

NATO will be weakened but it will survive.

[–]beermeem 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think you are generally correct but the Russian "influence" is generally overstated.

Trump is much less "bought off" by Russia than that he sees many similar interests.

It absolutely flabbergasts me the attitude certain people have taken about Russia. This was a country that was our literal mortal enemy for half a century. And now that we have a President willing and able to do his best to make nice (while many differences still exist), those same certain people want to politicize that relationship -- those same certain people who even in my lifetime still idolized Russia for its communist ways.

[–]Chipit[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Huh? Trump? Trump's not the problem. Europeans are the problem. They don't believe in NATO. You really don't know this?

They won't fund their militaries to the bare minimum amount. Only 2.7% of European troops are trained and equipped to a sufficient degree to be deployed in combat. In general, Europe depends on the US for defense and to protect their interests. Simply put, Germany doesn't trust America I just don't see the point of NATO any more. If we are really as untrusted as the Russians, then WTF are we doing there?

And at least half in Germany, France and Italy are unwilling to use military force to defend other NATO allies against Russian aggression. The biggest issue with Germany is that Germans don't believe in NATO. In fact, most of the population does not believe in military alliances at all. And note the support before Trump took office. Almost the same. So, no, I don't think that is from Trump.

Europeans generally expect the U.S. to use military force to defend a NATO ally from a Russian attack, but they are less supportive of using their own armed forces under the same circumstances.

NATO means so much to the 25% of American children living in poverty even though their parents work full time for minimum wage. How about we cut back on NATO, tell the Eurofags to pay for their own defense, and spend our money on them instead.

Here's a great longread on the situation.

[–]beermeem 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

From the Germans I've spoken to, this is pretty dead on. They don't want to be involved but when it comes down to it, they do have a certain resentment against the Americans which leads to feeling entitled. The Germans I've spoken with even go so far as to wonder aloud why we still have bases on their land.

It'll never happen but I'd like to see the US strengthen its relationships with countries that have stood up for themselves like Poland and Denmark.

[–]Chipit[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, they literally grew up with free US protection. This has led them to take it for granted. Does a fish notice the water?

Moreover it feels great to sit on top your high horse and say you're more morally correct than the Americans. Boy the Germans fucking love that. Accept all the benefits while shitting on your provider.

If they actually get NATO to disband, which I personally think should happen, they're going to be very surprised when they have to pay for their own defense. I think nobody thought that far. They just despise us and want the emotional release of hating us.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

NATO: Operation Gladio? Good riddance.