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[–]Site_sux[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Qui bono my friend. That's what we're supposed to be asking.

The moron president lost the VDV, lost hundreds of tanks, APCs and 10k+ troops dead, 20k+ wounded during the run on Kyiv.

You simply cannot tell me they attacked Kyiv for hidden reasons that somehow paid off the loss of all of that...like "well actually they needed to drive to kyiv's outskirts and then turn around because they accomplished a secret mission in the area that we aren't being told about".....

You're attesting that they accomplished a secret mission in the area costing 30k+ lives. And then I'm the gaslighting one because I don't assert a secret mission that nobody knows about. Give me a break, moron, with your baby snowflake "oooo he's gaslighting me" baby whinging. Are you going to cry when you figure out there was no secret mission that was worth the VDV, Russia's reputation and 30k+ lives?

[–]SoCo 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

Your insults aren't helping your case.

Neither is pretending publicly expressed missions and motivations are a "secret mission that nobody knows about", while you are hypocritically pushing an assumed nefarious mission with exaggerated evil motivations and no bases rather than being rhetoric from opponents of a secret unsaid conspiracy goal to take over Ukraine, and then the world mu ha ha ha. So transparently lame and deceitful.

Neither military success, nor failure can infer motivation. One my assume, generally, that a more noble cause, would justify a more extreme risk of sacrifice than one based on greed.

[–]Site_sux[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Ok - not a secret mission but a secret noble cause. So there was a noble thing which had to be done - they had to lose so much going to Kyiv and turning around, and it was done for nobility that only you understand and it's gaslighting to think otherwise. Is that right?

Because I'm not aware of any noble thing they did during the trip to Kyiv and back again. And I haven't heard anyone else talking about a secret noble mission that excuses that catastrophe. But I'm gaslighting. Yeah right. Grow up, you big baby

[–]SoCo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Russia claimed to be fighting genocide from the beginning. It was no secret, it was the only reason they gave.

You don't have to like or believe their reasoning; you just have to not lie about it existing.

Please study the The Pyramid of Debate and leave your Reddit-troll tactics at the door. We'd rather live in reality here and have productive conversation.

[–]Site_sux[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Now you're being dishonest, you know the 'fighting fascism' thing is a load of bullshit from the guy sponsoring fascist la Lega in Italy, facist marine le pen in France, fascist freedom party in Austria, facist afd in Germany and on and on.

Now you're trying to pretend that the attempt to demilitarise Kyiv oblast was actually some successful plan to affect the politics of Ukraine and only you can explain it because only you can decipher Putin's claims. You're a bullshitter and you're trying to convince me that the events I saw didn't happen and the words I hear weren't said...and you call me a gaslighter ...

[–]SoCo 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I don't try to decipher, evaluate, or grade Putin's claim. I simply just don't dishonestly deny it exists. I especially don't pretend that his biased detractors' assumptions about what evil motivations he might possibly have in his mind, which contradict what he's spoken, are based in any kind of reality.

[–]Site_sux[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

what evil motivations he might possibly have in his mind, which contradict what he's spoken

Again you're being dishonest. Either that, or the confidence with which you write is unearned because you don't actually know what Putin said.

You have claimed that I'm gaslighting by assuming the run on Kyiv was a total failure, because Putin didn't say he wanted to take over Ukraine. You're wrong about that, and wrong about what gaslighting means.

Here's what he thinks of ukraine, he has in fact been quite clear on the matter. He believes Ukraine is a fake nation of confused russians.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220101002027/https://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

https://youtu.be/W57I2mzAr9c

[–]SoCo 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

You keep calling me dishonest, but fail to show that I am.

You do continue to dishonestly misrepresent what I say...

I've never commented on the success or failure of any military operation. I have suggested that speculating motivation, based on the success or failure outcome, was completely illogical. I've also called your repeating of propaganda projecting Russia's evil world domination intentions, to be baseless gaslighting, as it is.

You simplify a complex situation, where Ukraine, with mostly a Russian heritage, has worked to erase that, which is arguably possibly some level of genocide, has violated treaties, and shouldn't have been allowed by Russia, or any other conscious bearing nation, to be manipulated so much by the US and UN, arguably who covertly overthrew their government and installed a puppet leader in 2014, simply for choosing Russia over the US+UN for a trade deal.

All these things are arguable and come with many perspective, but it isn't very honest to ignore them and pretend some conveniently simplified projection.

[–]Site_sux[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have suggested that speculating motivation, based on the success or failure outcome, was completely illogical

It would be one thing if we had watched the Russian army perform a "raid on a compound" and were speculating who might have lived there, what inspired the raid, what the RFAF might have taken from the compound and so on. Then, if I had declared "this raid was a failure!" you would be right to call me out, for sounding so certain of a speculative topic.

The reality here is something totally different though. The RFAF sent tens of thousands of men and vehicles to the major cities of the country it was invading, then turned around and left, with absolutely mind blowing casualty and destruction rate. There is no speculation: it's very clear that their attack failed. You've already agreed that there probably wasn't a secret mission happening around those major cities, the success of which, might excuse the incredible casualties. The first stage of this war was an absolute failure for Russia, you cannot deny it with "well they never explicitly said they intended to capture those cities!"

Now we come to the other dishonesties.

covertly overthrew their government and installed a puppet leader in 2014,

That's a lie and it's totally unsubstantiated. Ukraine experienced a revolution of dignity in 2014 after dictator Yanukovic cancelled elections. Nobody appointed the chocolatier except the ukrainian electorate.

erase that, which is arguably possibly some level of genocide

There is a nation which is committing mass rape and genocide today, and it's not ukraine. The enablers of the orcish hordes are going to swing. How can you see the ongoing terrorism of Kramatorsk train station, the Mariupol theatre, kremenchuk shopping center - and worry about the fate of poor russia. That's how I know you're either lying or severely broken in the brain

[–]SoCo 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This reminds me of every comment thread on Reddit and why I hated it so much.....sorry bro, I've lost interest in your conspiracy sermon.