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[–]Node 2 insightful - 1 funny2 insightful - 0 funny3 insightful - 1 funny -  (7 children)

Really, more of a declaration of attempted theft. If territories within a countries borders, what is the point of forming a country?

If you rent or lease out a house, can the tenants declare independence and seize your house? Can individuals living in Catalonia continue the process until every single property is its own country?

Rhetorical questions. Decide if it's war or a criminal conspiracy, then act accordingly.

[–]an-arkhos[S] 2 insightful - 1 funny2 insightful - 0 funny3 insightful - 1 funny -  (6 children)

The acceptance of the right to secession as a fundamental human right is the key to a be better world, the fact this is a unpopular opinion shows that we have a long way to go.

[–]Node 2 insightful - 1 funny2 insightful - 0 funny3 insightful - 1 funny -  (5 children)

What about the rights of the people who don't want to live in chaos? Why should members of any group have the right to steal from other members of the group? I'm not seeing the basis here.

And how far do you want to go with this?

If you rent or lease out a house, can the tenants declare independence and seize your house? Can individuals living in Catalonia continue the process until every single property is its own country?

[–]an-arkhos[S] 2 insightful - 1 funny2 insightful - 0 funny3 insightful - 1 funny -  (4 children)

I am advocating that the individual is the foundation of all ownership rights and ownership is gained by means of trade or improvement (the homesteading principle). initiation of violence or theft are wrong.

So no you cannot declare your rental home independent, however i do not recognize the state as the owner of anything, the state is just a vehicle representing the individuals, Catalonians collectively want to secede they should be able to do so, should individuals that fall within the boundaries of this new state want to stay within Spain they should be able to have there enclave or exclave property, or without property retain at least there Spanish citizenship status, regardless of there they live,work or sleep. and yes should individuals with rightful property or valid homesteading claim to state/public property wish to form their own state they should be able to also.

There is however a lot of reasons independent states will have a certain minimum size and population, but for practical reasons.

The large size of many of our current states is deeply rooted in their violent history of conquest and genocide, coincidentally many of the smaller nations around the world are peaceful and often prosperous.

[–]Node 1 insightful - 1 funny1 insightful - 0 funny2 insightful - 1 funny -  (3 children)

i do not recognize the state as the owner of anything, the state is just a vehicle representing the individuals

A state that own nothing can't function. At the least, they would almost seem to need paper and pencil, with a desk in a non-borrowed space. Then, how do they get around or contact people? Would they walk to coffee shops to meet people? Then if they write something as a result, they may need a filing cabinet for the papers. Really seems like they would need to own stuff just to function at any level.

Yes, they represent us (or are supposed to, anyway...), so that's why we fund them and give them authority to act in our names and interests.

the individual is the foundation of all ownership rights

Agreed, but without the existence of individuals, ownership and basic human concepts would not exist. Is there another school of thought on this that makes any sense?

Without getting into deep philosophical arguments that I'm sure have been hashed out long ago, individual owners can group together and form governments to represent them, to which they assign part of their assets. Part of that process is making the government like a "super-agent" for the territory within it's borders.

In my view, being born within that territory (legally, by citizens, and etc.) should make you a default member of the association known as "your country". If you fail to abide by its rules and behavioral standards, then the association should have you removed or evicted. Staying within the country is tacit acknowledgement and agreement with the rules. Forming a competing jurisdiction within another jurisdiction seems logically invalid. In a biological sense, that sounds like disease. In a societal sense, it sounds like a demand for whatever level of violence is required to resolve the issue.

many of the smaller nations around the world are peaceful and often prosperous.

Pushovers that don't need military conquest to extract concessions and/or resources.


Am not impressed by my above argument. It sounds like someone who has never studied government forms, which is what it actually is... Even though I'm failing to properly articulate the argument that country borders should be inviolate, and that members of a country have a duty to protect and defend it, it seems like the only sustainable model. That's more based on just living a long time and paying some attention to other humans. if humans change into something else, then maybe other models would work better.

[–]an-arkhos[S] 2 insightful - 1 funny2 insightful - 0 funny3 insightful - 1 funny -  (2 children)

A state that own nothing can't function. At the least, they would almost seem to need paper and pencil, with a desk in a non-borrowed space. Then, how do they get around or contact people? Would they walk to coffee shops to meet people? Then if they write something as a result, they may need a filing cabinet for the papers. Really seems like they would need to own stuff just to function at any level.

Cmon dude, this is a next level conversation,things can be in "possession" of the state while the "ownership" is retained by the people, just like corporations do not truly "own" stuff but all the things "in possession" of a corporation are owned by its shareholders.

Not sure what to reply to the rest of your post, sounds like your a fan of strong nations and value power and well being of the collective over the plight of the individual, if we have different goals we are bound to have different answers.

[–]Node 1 insightful - 1 funny1 insightful - 0 funny2 insightful - 1 funny -  (1 child)

things can be in "possession" of the state while the "ownership" is retained by the people, just like corporations do not truly "own" stuff but all the things "in possession" of a corporation are owned by its shareholders.

I would accept that technicality, but in real life, the state effectively owns everything within its borders. Citizens are effectively "club members", with all the rights and responsibilities thereof.

the plight of the individual

Individuals are responsible for creating their own plights. No one is 'owed' a plight, especially those who did nothing but suck up resources for the first 10 or 20 years of their membership. Looked at another way, it could be argued that they owe an enormous debt for their very existence. To their direct caregivers, yes, but they're also living on "club grounds" under a provisional exception to their duty to provide value in exchange.

Now, I can see the validity of other forms of living arrangements. Living tribally can work - when the population in a given area is low enough. Then you need no real borders, because resources in the area are sufficient, and replenished faster than they're used up. We unfortunately no longer live in that world. Whole world is sliced and diced, mapped and claimed. There are very few places one can exist without a country membership. Pressure is getting so great that some of the cracks appear to be threatening the whole system. So maybe we will get back to that tribal/alternate way of living, or tech advances will effectively solidify control over the masses à la manière de Brave New World.

I guess I'm arguing for "what is" rather than what should or could be, but maybe I'm blurring the edges a bit.

[–]an-arkhos[S] 1 insightful - 1 funny1 insightful - 0 funny2 insightful - 1 funny -  (0 children)

Fair enough a very apt description of "what is". But smaller nations are better for everyone, cooperation rather then federation and power consolidation, catalonians want to be independent let them be independent,spain has no moral authority to be suppressing this by force and the EU shows is true colors by supporting spain