all 41 comments

[–]FediNetizen 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

From the actual release:

This decision follows Merck’s review of findings from Phase 1 clinical studies for the vaccines. In these studies, both V590 and V591 were generally well tolerated, but the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection and those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines

Funny how your snippet leaves that 2nd part out. It's not that vaccines aren't effective, it's that their vaccine can't compete with the better vaccines that have already reached the market.

Anyways, the good vaccines have success rates in the 93%+ range 2 weeks after the 2nd dose, or ~95% a month after that 1-dose vaccine. For comparison, a typical flu vaccine is closer to 50%. And while that does mean you can take the vaccine and still end up dying from the real virus, if it prevents infection for 95% of the population, then the virus can't sustain itself, and will quickly die off once a majority of the population is innoculated.

[–]Dunwidit 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

95% you say... For a virus with a recovery rate better than 99%. for healthy people. Occasionally i find myself thinking, while standing in line at the store, sitting in traffic, things like that. "Maybe Bill is right, maybe there are just too many people and we need to call the herd" but then I think but we need to do it selectively... We need to get rid of stupid people. And since the only people I can think of that would take a vaccine that's never been tested for a virus that has a 99.8% recovery rate... A vaccine that is clearly being demonstrated to be extremely harmful... It is actually replicating RNA inside your body that is going to cause extraordinarily dramatic immune resistance response (DEADLY) would only be the stupid people. I hope you're getting your vaccine.

[–][deleted]  (29 children)

[deleted]

    [–]magnora7 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

    It is transcribed into the viral spike proteins and then naturally broken down within a short time

    I looked up how long, and the half-life of mRNA in the cell is about 10 hours, which I found interesting.

    However it only produces an immune response to the spike proteins as that's the only part replicated, not the whole virus.

    Furthermore the spike protein shape is slightly modified to hold it shut, because it naturally snaps open like a spring folded in half. So they had to add peptide bonds to ensure the spike proteins stay shut.

    And then the mass quantities of spike proteins, while some rise to the cells surface and result in an immune response, many of the spike proteins linger in the cell until it dies weeks or months later.

    Lastly it appears there is some confusion to the immune system as well, because instead of giving the whole virus to your immune system, it merely presents one of the 26 proteins in the virus, and it generates from your body's own replication, which in some people causes immune system confusion that results in the body attacking itself, which is why it's not recommended for the immuno-compromised.

    It's a very interesting technology with a lot of applications, but I know personally I'll be waiting until they test it more and work the kinks out

    [–][deleted]  (21 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]magnora7 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

      The fact that the protein is synthesised by your own cells is irrelevant.

      Not necessarily though. The spike proteins aren't attached to anything, so the immune system may begin to recognize the back side of the spike protein as a threat, a side of the protein which would normally be attached to the virus and thus not ID'd by the immune system.

      Furthermore these disembodied spike proteins share some overlap in shape with a protein in the placenta, and it's beginning to look like it's causing miscarriages on occasion because of this, which is why they don't recommend it for pregnant women.

      And lastly the immune system notes the shape of the protein and what it's attached to, which is partly why traditional vaccines include the entire virus. If the spike proteins are poking out the membrane of your own cells, on occasion the immune system may begin to ID your own cells as being hostile because it is associated with the spikes, thus creating an auto-immune disorder in some people.

      So that is 3 examples of false identification potentialities that could be avoided with a traditional whole-virus vaccine.

      It's not all bad of course, and it is a breakthrough technology no doubt, but these types of problems (and the large number of people having adverse reactions) should not be waved aside. A long time doctor friend of mine just got his second dose of the mRNA vaccine as required by work, and afterword he said "I don't want to discourage anyone from getting the vaccine, but if I had known the adverse reactions would be this severe I would've had more caution going in to it."

      I think these concerns need to be taken very seriously, especially considering the companies who manufacture these vaccines have zero liability or fault as per federal law (as per the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program), so the companies unfortunately aren't very incentivized to spend a lot of time researching the side affects, and are instead more concerned about rushing it to market as quickly as possible. These profit and liability motivations make the quality of the research a bit more questionable, in addition to the technological/biological problems that are presenting themselves with this technology.

      My deepest fear is that the cure is worse than the disease. I sincerely hope that is not the case here. But I guess we will find out over the next few years. Phase III FDA testing was partially skipped in order to bring it to market faster. Which is dangerous for a typical vaccine, but absolutely frightening to see these safety barriers bypassed for an entirely new technology of mRNA based vaccines, that manufacturers also have no liability for, and is proving to have a large proportion of adverse reactions compared to typical vaccines. And furthermore I see these sorts of concerns frequently brushed aside by the media and even the medical and scientific communities, which is unnerving.

      But I am hopeful about the mRNA technology in the long-term, and the thousands of potential disease-curing applications, I just think this has been rushed and we don't fully understand this technology yet, so I'm going to wait at least a few years for the evidence to come in and the dust to settle.

      [–][deleted]  (13 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]magnora7 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

        The spike proteins are expressed within the cell and generally presented within the cell membrane.

        I got the impression only a minority of the spike proteins make it to the membrane, while most just hang out in the cell and aren't exposed until the cell dies. I learned this from a NYT article, which is paywalled so here is an exact copy of it on another site: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/explained-a-visual-guide-to-how-the-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-works-1.4436433

        "Some of the spike proteins form spikes that migrate to the surface of the cell and stick out their tips. The vaccinated cells also break up some of the proteins into fragments, which they present on their surface. These protruding spikes and spike protein fragments can then be recognised by the immune system"

        "When a vaccinated cell dies, the debris will contain many spike proteins and protein fragments, which can then be taken up by a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell."

        So they say only "some" of the spike proteins make it to the surface. And "many" spike proteins (and protein fragments that are 1/3 of a spike!) are released by the cell when it dies.

        As to the immune system recognising what the antigen is attached to, this is very very rarely the case when it comes to the host cells. If it were so, any infection at all would trigger a catastrophic autoimmune response.

        You could be right, that makes sense. I wish I understood more about this specific part of the process. I don't even really understand why the immune system automatically sees the spikes as a threat in the first place, when they're not attached to a virus. Is it just any unusual shaped protein will result in an immune response? Or is it when the cell that is full of spike proteins dies, the death chemicals from the cell are paired with the spike proteins released, resulting in an immune system "memory" being created? I wish I knew more on this specific aspect.

        The design of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a supremely bad idea, your intuition is not incorrect. This has happened because America's federal regulatory bodies have been captured fully by the very corporations they are supposed to oversee and limit. This strategy is called "regulatory capture" and unfortunately has become a common method of operation for the largest American corporations. See the yellow venn diagram at the bottom of this chart for some concrete examples of the overlap between industry and regulation that has caused this "regulatory capture" situation in America: https://i.imgur.com/PVpFY.jpeg

        Knowing this and seeing how rushed the vaccine has been, gives me significant pause.

        It does make me wonder how it's approved in other countries though. It can't be that every country relies on the USA's FDA to verify vaccine safety right? I surely hope not. I would assume each country has its own federal vaccine liability and safety organization? I don't know what country you are from, but what is the approval and testing process in your country for this vaccine? Are they running their own independent safety tests and reviews?

        Anyway, I agree this has been a great conversation, it's nice to talk about these things in a scientific way, rather than emotional way like I have seen so much of lately.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Interesting, thanks for the link.

          [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

          he's bullshitting you, Magnora7. He's made a ton of elementary mistakes in his use of language around cellular mechanisms. He's pretending to be a knowledgeable scientist, but he's got student level awareness at best.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [deleted]

            [–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Either way it's one the more well-informed conversations I've had in a while, and I appreciate him for that

            [–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Also, such a response can cause a post-sepsis like syndrome where immune toleration takes over.

            [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            and generally presented within the cell membrane.

            yeah, get out of here. Cells don't "present" "within".

            I've got 7 years of medical research behind me. who are you?

            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              your original "within" was wording that no one I know would use.

              My background? Neurobiology. Published. Many years in medical research. Covid-19 is interesting to me because we used coronaviruses as MS models. Yours?

              We can talk in couched and guarded terms, not give ourselves away, and still be able to vet each other through language.

              [–]christnmusicreleases 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

              The cure is actually worse than the disease, because the cure is design to kill, maim and sterilize. We need to stop naively trusting the oligarchy who cares nothing about us 'useless eaters' whom they depopulate every day.

              [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

              viruses are bad because they hijack cells to make more viruses. SO what are the cells that are hijacked by the 'vaccine' mRNA doing before they become spike factories?

              And

              What does the mRNA in the A tail on the vaccine code for?

              also

              So once the immune response is primed, the 'infected' (but not really) cells are destroyed.

              yeah, i'm not buying that. The immune system isn't ransacking cellular machinery to look for antigens. the spikes have to be outside the cell, anchored on the bimolecular lipid membrane, or lose in the interstitial fluid / blood in order to be visible to the immune system.

              I"m calling bullshit on your 'background". what qualifications, what institute?

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                As to the A tail, how the fuck should I know? I didn't make the damned thing.

                you can look it up. I'd expect anyone with an interest in the subject to have done so immediately. Its very clever and interesting to see how they've got around all the defenses.

                The cells are doing the same thing they have ever done. Making numerous other proteins. They are in no way hijacked by the vaccine mRNA any more than any other mRNA already present.

                That's a bold statement. Where is your evidence for that? The vaccine manufacturers say that the spike proteins are released when the cell dies

                anything I say about my qualifications is meaningless

                Yep. you don't have any. got it

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                [deleted]

                  [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  every time. "it's basic" is shorthand for "my knowledge is shallow"

                  you are not a qualified scientist at all. not even a bachelors. why pretend?

                  [–]bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  viruses are bad because they hijack cells to make more viruses. SO what are the cells that are hijacked by the 'vaccine' mRNA doing before they become spike factories?

                  [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                  really. what does the unidentified stretch of code inside the A tail code for? Because it looks a lot like reverse transcriptase to me

                  [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                    do you understand what mRNA does?

                    it codes for protein manufacture, through a sequence of amino acids.

                    what are enzymes? Proteins.

                    What is reverse transcriptase, but a enyzme?

                    https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/Q9WJQ2

                    did you even check out the vaccine mRNA sequence?

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      The cap and tail are untranslated regions. They do not code for proteins, they are structural and functional elements important to the stability and expression of the mRNA.

                      normally the tail is a single repeating amino acid. pfizer has a chunk of code halfway through the tail....

                      Unless the full sequence has been published somewhere that I have not seen.

                      well, duh. it has

                      [–]Aves 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Right of course. Now who gets to define stupidity? You? No thanks.

                      [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Fedinazi fails to mention that the measure of vaccine "success" is NOT recovery from covid, or prevention of infection, but merely the presence of antibodies to the spike protein. Just like every other vaccine, he measure of effectiveness is unrelated to any health outcomes.

                      [–]VirgilGriff 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                      So, OP is a faggot?

                      Edit: I looked at /u/carn0ld03 's post history. He is a faggot. He spams bullshit articels and doesn't participate in any discussions. He's probably a shill

                      [–]AmericanMuskrat 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                      [–]Questionable 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      The mRNA vaccines are not meant to prevent the spread, or cure the virus, but only to limit symptoms in spite of actually causing symptoms, and only last 90 days, while having a high change of having the side effect of death, and unknown long term effects.

                      With that in mind, you seem to be taking issue with Merk's rational concerns for the health and well being of the general populous. No sane human being shills this hard for experimental vaccines. Or more to the point. You are mentally ill. Seek help.

                      [–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                      FediNetizen is a big pharma shill

                      the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection and those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines

                      Do you have sources for this sars hoax whyrus protection?

                      Whatever they're injecting people with is not a vaccine. It is an EXPERIMENTAL injectable mRNA therapy.

                      It doesn't stop the spread of the fake whyrus, or prevent people from getting "it".

                      Moderna boss says COVID-19 vaccine not proven to stop spread of virus**

                      “I think we need to be careful, as we get vaccinated, not to over-interpret the results,” Zaks told Axios in a TV interview released Monday. “When we start the deployment of this vaccine, we will not have sufficient concrete data to prove that this vaccine reduces transmission.”

                      You Can Still Spread, Develop COVID-19 After Getting a Vaccine: What to Know January 19, 2021

                      • Experts say people can still spread and even develop COVID-19 after getting a vaccine.
                      • They note the immunity from the vaccine doesn’t begin to emerge until at least 12 days after inoculation.
                      • They add the vaccine doesn’t prevent coronavirus infection. It helps protect against serious illnesses.
                      • Experts advise people who get vaccinated to continue wearing a mask, washing their hands, and maintaining proper physical distancing.

                      Moderna’s COVID Vaccine Is An ‘Operating System’ – Is This Transhumanism? January 5, 2021

                      Our Operating System

                      Recognizing the broad potential of mRNA science, we set out to create an mRNA technology platform that functions very much like an operating system on a computer. It is designed so that it can plug and play interchangeably with different programs. In our case, the “program” or “app” is our mRNA drug – the unique mRNA sequence that codes for a protein.

                      This is not a vaccine.

                      [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      the and is VERY important. Sure, they can include other vaccines in the line, but that does not negate the effectiveness of natural immunity, nor does it make ANY comparison between NI and VI, and to attempt to do so yourself is bogus.

                      In fact, as covid-19 is a CNS disease, NI is mediated via glial immune responses, and no vaccine that is not designed to cross the Blood Brain Barrier can hope to compete.

                      [–]clianthe 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

                      This could be said of most, if not all, of the current vaccines on the market.

                      [–]FediNetizen 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

                      The entire point of a vaccine is to avoid the hazards of the actual virus. It's true that if you're under 50, your odds of getting hospitalized because of this virus are low, and the risk of death is negligible (~0.02% for adults in the 20-49 range according to the CDC), but the vaccine still helps you avoid the symptoms and reduces the risk of a severe infection to almost nil.

                      And that's just younger people. If you're over 50 the fatality rate really starts picking up. About 5% of those 50-69 that contract it will end up hospitalized, and around 0.5% will die. Of those 70+, around 20% of those that contract it will end up in the hospital. 5.4% of those that contract it will die. Intentionally getting infected would be insane for those people. The vaccine is saving a lot of lives here.

                      [–]magnora7 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

                      But we must also remember that the FDA didn't do Phase III testing on the elderly with this vaccine, so we have no idea what the adverse reaction rate in the elderly is.

                      Originally ventilator use was common to combat covid, but it was figured out eventually that it was killing more people than it was saving.

                      I just hope that the negative reaction rate in the elderly is lower than the covid rates themselves. I hope the cure isn't worse than the disease. But we'll know in a few months or years I guess... I'm certainly going to wait until more evidence comes in before I take it myself.

                      [–]FediNetizen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                      They did do testing on seniors in their Phase III trials, but you're right in that there wasn't sufficient focus on the results for the most elderly that are at the highest risk.

                      "Of the 21,720 people who received the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine rather than the placebo in its phase 3 trial, 7,971 or 37% were over age 55. Pfizer’s study did not include a breakout for those 65 and older. In the Moderna phase 3 trial, of the 15,181 volunteers given the vaccine rather than the placebo, 3,763 or 25 percent were older than 65." The quote was taken from this article about the widespread deployment of vaccines to Florida's senior population

                      And it's also worth mentioning this paper - Efficacy and safety of COVID-19 vaccines in older people

                      With regards to the concern about rates of adverse reactions to the vaccines, widespread inoculation started back in December, and many of those vaccines went to elderly people. If the elderly were reacting poorly to it, we would have heard about it by now.

                      [–]magnora7 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                      If the elderly were reacting poorly to it, we would have heard about it by now.

                      Not if those happenings are being under-reported, downplayed, or silenced entirely.

                      But you're right it's obviously not super terrible or we'd know by now. I do think a country or two has cancelled the mRNA vaccine though and are instead going to do the traditional-style vaccine that Russia developed

                      [–]Bigs 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                      I thought the Russian version was a traditional type but have since learned it is also a DNA thing (possibly DNA rather than RNA or wotnot, I dunno)

                      [–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                      Oh really, any link on that? Sounds interesting

                      [–]Bigs 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                      Seems it uses a common cold virus 'vector' to insert DNA into cells or wotnot? I dunno *shrugs

                      [–]Bigs 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                      Didn't one of the Scandinavian countries recently declare they were going to stop giving the rna vaccines to the elderly, as they were having too many bad outcomes?

                      [–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      If so, that's news to me. I would have figured /s/Coronavirus would be celebrating if something like that happened, but none of the top articles from the last month seem to mention anything about it. Where did you hear that?

                      [–]Intuit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      I don't think it's merely age that ups your risk, but your lack of health. It's just that as groups, older people have more health issues.

                      [–]nolocus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Having a genetic co-morbidity means Covid can kill me. I know healthy people who've survived Covid after a severe illness. I'll get the second Moderna dose soon.