all 22 comments

[–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

TL;DR: I didn't give a shit about my role in transitioning kids until I saw more and more girls being sucked in and mutilated by this.

So I started writing down everything I could about my experience at the Transgender Center. Two weeks ago, I brought my concerns and documents to the attention of Missouri’s attorney general. He is a Republican. I am a progressive. But the safety of children should not be a matter for our culture wars.

Except that it is, and it's mostly because progressives (like yourself) made it so.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Better late than never and I don't believe in attacking those that come to reason is in any way helpful for the movement against this, but that said, you do need to sit back and really ask yourself "why did I think transitioning children, drugging and giving them surgeries to merely "appear" as the opposite gender, instead of dealing with the root causes of their distress, was a good idea".

It's like if a child comes in and says they are feeling sad that grandma died and they want to be with grandma again, so you decide euthanasia is a good option to give them what they want. Sheer lunacy.

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

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    [–]Alienhunter糞大名 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    A good analogy. I'm going to answer yes, we do give the girl gastric bypass surgery, because we have a capitalistic medical system which is profit driven. If I as a doctor choose not to pursue such an unnecessary surgery due to some non-profit related metric. Then my patient need merely find a profit motivated doctor with no such moral hangups

    For this reason I've long argued that medicine is a realm in which the normal workings of market capitalism are not going to lead to desirable outcomes and will eventually work against the good of the patient unless there is some kind oversight and moral system in place that is not beholden to profit based motivations.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I'm not aware of any such cases either (I'll leave out some of the suspect obesity treatments I see adults get, while I suspect they are sub optimal, I am not a medical expert, nor do I believe it is some great moral outrage for adults to choose such, but I do believe we need to criticize the profit motive)

      My point is, I think that when we have a medical system and industry that is profit driven, the answer to your question "do we give gastric bypass surgery to minors with anorexia" is "does that make us money" and not "is that what's best for the patient."

      There are a great number of moral doctors along with amoral doctors, not everyone is going to go along with blatant profiteering at the expense of the patients, but the simple process of social darwinism here does lead to a "survival of the fittest" mechanism.

      In nature, there is no sense of morality in evolution. If an organism reproduces more it "wins" the game. Even if such wins destroy the local environment (see overpopulation of predators or herbivores when balances are upset) it doesn't effect the individual, who wins. With business the win condition is set to "who makes the most money" and while many won't be playing by that rule, others will, and as long as we don't have a social framework in place to keep doctors working in their patients best interests (and profit motives I'm absolutely in favor of, skilled and good doctors should get more money) that shouldn't be reflected in terms of sales (for example a doctor who finds a way to sell less medicine and keep his patients happy and healthy should be valued more than a doctor who prescribes more medicine, our system will merely reward the doctor with the higher sales with the financial benefits)

      One of the biggest failings of communism was the bizzare notion that people would somehow forgo the allure of wealth, and will simply pursue morally superior pursuits once the "oppression of capitalism" is removed. I disagree with that notion. I think that the allure of wealth and power are inescapable realities of the human condition. And that given the proper environment humans are capable of comitting great evil on others for their own benefit. As such, we need to structure society in ways where the interests of the individual are in line with the interests of society as a whole. This isn't easy, or perfectly achievable. But it can be enforced through some legislation. In the American sense, I think the most effective way would be to ban medical advertising, especially for prescription drugs. I see no real moral significance between TV adverts hawking anti-depressents than I would if they were advertising heroin. In fact, I think the only real difference between the two is the latter does have a real risk of killing you now, and that limits the medical industry ability to profit from the addiction. Which is why they are against it. I feel a similar situation exists with tobacco, which while undeniably bad for you, is given a stigma in American society far outreaching it's actual danger. I situation I feel has come about due to the medical industry realizing that it's probably more profitable to sell various stress relief and anti-depressents medications than having a population hopped up on mild stimulants.

      Don't get me wrong, tobacco is bad for you, and of course you are better off to abstain from it. But in the American sense I've noticed a stigma towards tobacco so insanely strong as if it's seen as akin to criminal activity. And I don't think this situation is in any way organic.

      [–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I don't know if it's just me, but I've noticed that there's something odd about some of the people who are almost militantly opposed to tobacco, and that's they are almost just as militant about the legalization and widespread acceptance of weed. (Quite a few are also just as against alcohol.)

      In my personal experience, I had someone (verbally) blast me for lighting a cigarette, going into this rant about how my filthy habit is destroying not just my lungs but theirs as well. This while they in the middle of packing a fucking bong.

      [–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I am unaware of any anorexic patient that was ever given gastric bypass surgery

      We all know that's only because it's not the trendy and profitable thing to do - yet. The moment it becomes trendy, you can bet that "you have to respect an anorexic person's identity", and there will be anorexic characters suddenly popping up a lot in media to attract potential customers. And anorexia will be shown as something precious and special.

      And afterwards, watch the gastric bypass surgery requests skyrocket to 2000%!!!! PROFIT!!

      [–]jacques1102 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      The thing is most TRAS would argue that anorexic girls are still depressed if you did give them gastric bypass surgery.Yet they argue that because the majority of trans people are happy with surgery that it's not only proof that they're the gender they claim to be but also we need to play along as well.I'm not saying i agree with them, but it's really odd how this is the only mental condition where a person is some how truly who they say they are.No one says multiple personality disorder is multiple people sharing a body.No one uses schizophrenia as proof hallucinations are real in another reality.If transgenders were really who they claim to be(which i don't believe)how is it not classified as the biggest birth defect in medical history?

      [–]r2d2_21 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      No one says multiple personality disorder is multiple people sharing a body

      Oh no, they do. It's not as widespread as trans people, but “systems” have existed in Tumblr for several years now.

      [–]Newzok 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

      Changing one's mind is something to be encouraged. Don't judge a person for having been blind now that they can finally see...

      [–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

      It's not the change of mind that I have issue with, I'm genuinely glad for that. But I've never segregated my objections to transitioning children between boys and girls, it's wrong across the board.

      However, this article's emphasis, almost to the point of exclusion, of how girls were affected by this? It (to me) absolutely reeks of that "women have always been the primary victims of war" thing that's become something of a meme. It feels (and I admit that I might be reading too much into this) that the author didn't care until she noticed that a demographic that mattered to her personally was starting to suffer negatively.

      [–]Newzok 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Yeah good point. Though, I think the reason of the emphasis is that females are way more susceptible to social contagion. Their numbers(ftm) have grown way more than males the last decade, to an insane degree. In just about every way, this shit fucks the most with women, ironically the most pro-trans part of the population.

      [–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I don't think it's about women being more susceptible to social contagion. I think it may be more about.... in life you will gain much more going from female to male than vice versa.

      [–]xoenix[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      It will play better with progressives though.

      Telling the story of seeing the sex ratio flip in real time is compelling stuff.

      [–]Wanderingthehalls 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Let's be honest though, from most of the stories I've read from the parents of boys who've been transitioned. There was a reasonably high chance that the little boy was gay. So it's a case of sterilising gay boys. Which really should be something that anyone progressive is completely opposed to.

      [–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      That's been my impression as well. Though I think a lot of this idea where we "assume " the kid might be gay is basically playing into harmful stereotypes as well which kind of force the issue and identity crisis.

      Now I'll fully admit hypocrisy here, as I'll do the same thing where I'll see someone acting a certain way and think "hmm yeah probably gay" but I think what happens is parents that try to push back against perceived "gender nonconformity" in their kid be that due to them thinking they are gay and attempting to "get the gay out of them" or them assuming that because their kid isn't acting like a typical member of their sex, that means they must be trans, that seems to me to just be as harmful. Conservative vs Liberal child abuse?

      I don't really know why you'd do anything if your kid was acting a bit differently. Yeah your kid is probably gonna get bullied by the other kids. And you as the parent are supposed to help guide them in dealing with that. But it's not like you know your kid is gay or whatnot just because they are flamboyant or something. I've known a bunch of straight flamboyant people. I've met a bunch of non-flamboyant gay people. You're not going to figure that shit out until the kid is an adult. Just let them be a kid.

      [–]Wanderingthehalls 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      No one can tell for sure what sexuality a child will grow up to have. But there are higher levels of non-gender conformity in childhood in children who grow up to be gay. Back when watchful waiting was the normal way to treat children with gender dysphoria it was observed that most of those kids stopped wanting to be the opposite sex around the onset of puberty. But were likely to be same sex attracted.

      That said, in my experience, all children are to a degree somewhat gender non-conforming because some of what adults impose as gender stereotypes are made up. There is no actual reason that pink if for girls and blue for boys. All babies and toddlers show a high preference for pink, because in utero, any light they saw was pink. Most small children enjoy rough and tumble play and ball games, not just boys. Most small children enjoy taking care of their dolls/teddies and mimicking their primary care giver, which means pretending to cook and take care of the house. But many adults tend to push children towards one type of play based on their sex. I tried really hard with my son to just let him enjoy whatever types of play and toys that he wanted when he was little but I'd still find myself reflexively telling him he couldn't have or do something because in my head it was for girls.

      [–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      The problem comes in when the kid hears that it's for girls then thinks "hmm girls want to play with the kitchen, I want to play with the kitchen, therefore I must be a girl." Or worse, the kid is sad and confused and then resentful of the fact they are a boy and can't do what they want to do because of it. Usually based on some arbitrary and pointless decision from the parents. That's why you see a good amount of transgender identification in more traditionally conservative circles.

      Watch how boys and girls play and you'll start to see some key differences. Boys will play with Barbie just as soon as they will play with GI Joe. But they're more likely to have the barbie play soldier. Likewise girls might just as we'll play with the GI Joe the same way they play with barbie.

      At the end of the day both toys are dolls. I'm certainly guilty of assuming that a child might end up growing up to be gay, but I realize that's my own stereotypes being used to judge what is ultimately none of my business and not something I should ever burden the child with be that in an affirming or disaffirming manner.

      I'll only stray into that territory when it comes to bullying. I'll tell the kid why they are getting bullied and how if they can avoid it. But that's a lesson in peer pressure and social expectations we must all learn at some point

      [–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      To be fair she did note the unethical chemical castration element for boys and men, which most other lesbian feminists would be all for.

      [–]clownworlddropout 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Just let them backpedal out of it man, we need to put this shit behind us asap, don't let earning political points get in the way.

      [–]Bonn1770 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      It is bragging and humiliation porn too, "I had enough power as a tranny to ruin a bunch of white children's lives and you cattle had to just take it."

      [–]IMissPorn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That's a very skewed reading of the article. Yes one section of the article focused on girls, but the sudden spike in FtM "trans" teens is something that pretty much every critic brings up as one of the red flags that something isn't right. It would have been strange if she didn't notice or comment on it.

      [–]Musky༼⁠ ⁠つ⁠ ⁠◕⁠‿⁠◕⁠ ⁠༽⁠つ 🐈 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      That's the first thing she's blown in a long time.