all 34 comments

[–]Femaleisnthateful 20 insightful - 19 fun20 insightful - 18 fun21 insightful - 19 fun -  (4 children)

Guess what else has 'no chance of passing'. Them.

[–]jet199 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Lol, if no one can tell what sex anyone is just by looking at them then how can the authorities tell who's in drag?

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Because they advertise them as drag shows.

I'm just going to say the sex of the drag performer is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's a man dressed like a slut or a woman dressed like a slut. It's the fact they are performing in front of children that is disturbing, anything else is just a distraction designed like any good wedge issue to generate loads of buzz and fundraising dollarydoos.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You massively missed the joke there.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Slowdown there Dave Chappelle you can't just make a joke about trans people what are you some kind of Hitler or something?

[–]ClassroomPast6178 20 insightful - 7 fun20 insightful - 6 fun21 insightful - 7 fun -  (9 children)

Wait, are they saying that a drag act, a man performing in a dress, is the same as a transwoman telling a joke or singing karaoke?

Are they admitting that transwomen are just men performing in dresses? Are they sure they want to make that argument?

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I think there's a subtle difference between a "drag show" and someone just performing in a dress.

Shakespeare used to have men play the women's parts. That's not drag though.

[–]ClassroomPast6178 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I know that. There’s a difference between pantomime dames and drag queens too. I was trying to work out how they could equate a drag act to a transwoman singing karaoke, which is what they were saying.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's not much point in trying to ask how they work out their bad takes. They are either incredibly stupid and easily riled up by bad faith arguments or they themselves are making the bad faith arguments to rile up the stupid people. There really isn't any coherent argument to be made for why a child should attend what is essentially a strip tease show. Drag or strip club or pole dancing I don't really care about it. If we had stripper story hour I'd be against it same as the drag.

Mainly there are a bunch of people, not all the gays or drag queens or whatever but a bunch of them, that are wholely into the mindset of "anyone who doesn't accept me outright is my enemy" and that extremist viewpoint leads them to imagine oppression everywhere. It's not much different than the dynamic you see in extremely conservative religious circles where they are desperately trying to equate everything with biblical prophecy and persecution. Once you get that kind of, I don't want to say Marxist lense because the term is trite and overused without much thought, but an essentialist mindset of all things, then you do begin to interpret every interaction through that lense of oppressor vs oppressed, persecutor vs persecuted, and whether the criteria for your essentialist mindset is religion, race, sexuality, or class, the outcome is you view everyone who opposes you as your ideological enemy outright and that lends itself to a constant struggle of reinventing your positions to be against your enemy and prove you are ideologically pure, which of course leads to various rediculous positions getting accepted. Us vs them. Pretty simple tribal dynamics.

It's why they can't see the difference between criticising the suitability of a performance for children with genocide, because in their minds they are the persecuted and all persecution must inevitably progress to genocide.

This is not a good position for society to be in because it will inevitably create a kind of self fulfilling prophecy and escalation. If I believe my opponents or critics literally want me dead then that justifies any manner of response, including ironically enough, genocide, because it's either us or them. That's why this kind of discourse is extremely dangerous to normalize and it should be countered at the earliest possibility. Censorship doesn't work except to fuel the persecution complex. The only way to deal with it is to rationally counter it with well reasoned arguments, so that they look like fools.

[–]LyingSpirit472 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well, one thing to keep in mind with a lot of these laws is that they go extremely hardline to give as little leeway as possible. No different than with the anti-abortion laws, where if you read the laws the states tried to pass, they were so hardline against abortion that under the definition of the law in the books, technically they could go into a hospital where a sobbing woman who had a natural miscarriage by no fault except fate giving them a nat 1 and arrest the mother for murder.

Same with this- the law says "no drag shows", but by their definition they ride so extreme it becomes "pantomime dames are illegal, Mrs. Doubtfire, Tootsie, and Some Like It Hot instantly become pornography, a trans performer in any context is illegal...hell, if they want to get extreme with it they could arrest a woman for wearing pants."

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's so they don't have to make a law that can hold up in court, both sides can play their end of the culture war with it and use it for fundraising.

If you wanted to make an actually effective law you'd zero in on the problem behavior itself , which isn't "drag" so much as doing lewd performances in front of minors.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But that's still one of the problems as well with the culture war: Lewdness is in the eye of the beholder. To someone on the TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTQlgb+ side of the coin, the drag queen could be dressed as Jesus Christ and proceed to bend over a child in the crowd and peg them with a 20 inch horse dildo and that would merely be "an act of sex education, completely instructional", while to someone on the alt-right side "a person dressed as their birth gender, but has a little button saying their preferred pronouns on it, existing in a public place" is abject lewdness.

Both sides of the political spectrum are so extreme to their side, and will NOT grant the other side even the smallest point, that it becomes impossible to make an effective law.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's in the eye of the beholder sure but you can make the law detailed in an effort to remove that eye as much as possible. Define the various lewd acts. Simulating oral sex with fruit. Making pumping pelvic motions while moaning. Etc. You can define the problematic behaviors. Classify them as adult performances and then be done with it until someone finds a loophole. Then you fill it, with the rock hard cement of justice.

[–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. But that ties to the same ultimate point. Neither side is truly able to bell the cat in that aspect. The pro-drag show side will believe nothing is lewd that's done, the anti-drag side will say literally everything involving a gay or trans person drawing breath is lewd, and neither side will budge from their demands enough to grant the other side even the smallest compromise (because if you compromise, you give the other side one point and if you give either side an inch, they'll take a mile from you.)

[–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, just old-fashioned misogyny /s.

[–]jerkwad152 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"WHY WON'T YOU LET ME EXPOSE MYSELF TO YOUR CHILDREN, BIGOT?!? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

This is venturing into censorship territory. You guys are starting to go full circle and it's really scaring me, because now the only people who aren't rooting for a totalitarian state are a few libertarians who you think are all nuts.

This is a parent's responsibility, not the government's.

[–]tiny-brown-mug 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think that if a few fringe members of the community hadn't gone way, way overboard with "Drag Queen Story Hour" and if we weren't seeing this frantic rush to trans kids, this would never have happened. The extremes are pushing other extremes. Having said that, I agree that drag shows are very... adult. They're obscene, contain enactments of sex acts, raunchy jokes, etc. They're not meant for kids.

This may lead to gay bars who host these shows being limited to 18+ admission. No minor teens, no kids, show your ID at the door.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

But aren't sexual performances already not for kids? We don't need a law for drag shows specifically. I feel like the real motive here is to outright ban things like crossdressing, and they're only using this as an excuse.

[–]tiny-brown-mug 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, they're not supposed to be. Problem is, now you have drag queen story hour, kids being taken on field trips to gay bars, and adult sexuality being taught to kids at younger and younger ages. This is all concerning, and tends to point back to the LGBTQ community, even though plenty of LGB people are not on board with this.

I don't think this will impact cross dressing. This is basically about performances, specifically raunchy stage performances where men in drag sing and perform in an explicit or obscene manner. This is not about a man wearing a dress in public as he shops for groceries, gets his car fixed at the shop, and pays his water bill.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It pretty much is. As far as I know anything involving crossdressing is technically drag, so that goes far beyond sexual performances. Clearly sexual performances in front of kids are the reason for the law, but I think the politicians who write bills like this know that the terms are a lot broader than what's supposedly being targeted, and they're taking advantage of it. If grooming kids is already illegal then this law is redundant otherwise. They just want to ban all crossdressing because they don't like it. Actually I don't even know if they don't like it, part of me thinks they're only doing this to get back at their opponents.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is not about a man wearing a dress in public as he shops for groceries, gets his car fixed at the shop, and pays his water bill.

But that's the whole point with how extreme the law is towards "performance." Performance has already been said that it considers, for example, "a professional wrestler who happens to be transgender performing in a match counts as a performance." If the law also says "a man wearing a dress in public doing karaoke counts as a drag performance". then it absolutely can and will be used to get the man wearing a dress in public for those: The man hears his favorite song while he's at the shop and hums along with it? Counts as singing, counts as a performance. He's shopping for groceries and is walking with his arms swinging a little bit? Counts as dancing, counts as a performance.

[–]IMissPorn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I share your concern. I understand why someone thought this was needed, but I don't like the direction this is going any more than I like what it's trying to address. It reminds me all too much of the bad old days when they US had film censorship and such.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I also agree we need to be very concerned about the overtly censorious types. But I will say that as this is a hot button culture war issue, as always, it's somewhat important to not take the takes the person in the tweet is saying at face value, and go instead to the text of the proposal in question.

https://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/Bills/Detail?id=SB43&ddBienniumSession=2023%2F2023R

The tweets claims that it would ban trans-people from making dirty jokes and karaoke is a very wide interpretation of the text.

Now personally. I don't think the specific amendment it this law designating drag performances as adult is necessary as it seems it should already be covered under the existing law. But the idea that it would ban trans people from doing karaoke is somewhat absurd. It might prevent trans people from doing karaoke at a school event if it's sexy karaoke afaik from a strict reading of the law in question. But sexy karaoke is already an adult activity and should not be done with minors anyway.

Personally I think it's one of those typical culture war bills that crops up and appears to make some significant change but actually doesn't change much except perhaps overtly adding an interpretation to the law for the purposes of enforcement.

I agree though that we need to be very cautious on how we decide to censor people's free expression. But I do think the idea of drag shows at school functions and the like is about the same as setting up a stripper poll in the auditorium. Neither should be allowed in a school environment. Not cause I'm that worried about the kids, but because I think the adults in the school are pushing it and likely pervs themselves, and they'll use it as a angle to identify their potential victims.

[–]IMissPorn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for finding that. I tried briefly, but seeing as I don't actually live in Arkansas I wasn't that motivated...

Anyways I see what you say is true. The important point is it defines a "drag performance" as:
A) blah blah blah gender identity and B) That is intended to appeal to prurient interest.

[–]brimshaeBased Woodchipper Merchant 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I'm 20 minutes

Great, now we have to deal with people who think time is a sexuality now.

[–]LtGreenCo 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

[–]SerpensInferna 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These people are complete idiots. They really are. Hysterical morons.

[–]Newzok 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a gay: good. As it should be.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Since when are drag queens trans? I thought they were gay men who like to dress up like women? As far as making the shows adult, what's wrong with that? You don't see kids at strip shows either.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Drag was more or less a very gay thing but like all of it seems the trans people have colonized it. Granted I think that the trans element was always there and there's some truth to the argument that they are only able to be their "true selves" because society is more accepting.

Or as I'd put it if you are very tolerant of someone's deviant urges then they'll simply progress into more and more extreme urges when the stuff that used to excite them no longer does so. It's like an addiction.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even not fitting gender stereotypes is under the trans umbrella now.

[–]Doodle00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I find it so funny they’re all bowling over each other and crying “stay safe guys!! Stay safe!!” When all the bill is saying is that drag performances will see restrictions to make sure kids aren’t a part of the whole thing. Like, that’s a good thing? Kids don’t need to be at an event where Dickalicious Dildomuncher is up on stage flashing himself and grinding on a pole to music. That’s inappropriate for their age, and if they all hadn’t gleefully recorded it happening over and over again, the law wouldn’t have crossed anyone’s minds in the first place. They have only themselves to blame for this shit.

[–]JulienMayfair 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Courtesy of Drag Queen Story Hour: Arguably the WORST public relations fuckup in history.