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[–]ClassroomPast6178 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think the problem with your argument is, these men have already been effectively removed from the gene pool for the fact that they’re dateless ogres no one actually cares about, “transitioning” does nothing in that regards, but it does give them social clout and stops them being the bottom of the victim hierarchy and in that sense it is a smart move in a world where victimhood has become social credit and being male has none (despite the high levels of suicide, unemployment, lack of qualifications, poorer outcomes in education, higher risk of being the victim of violent crime etc etc).

A bit of compassion towards these young men, maybe looking into issues such as educational underperformance, suicide etc might just alleviate the conditions from which these horrorshows come. But, no one cares….let’s just run yet another drive for more women in STEM (or as I saw the other night more female sailors in the RN). It’s cliche now but any boffin in a film will almost certainly be a woman, and I will put money on the next Q being a woman.

As the lead teacher for Computing at my last school I was inundated with offers for clubs, prizes, trips, exhibitions, courses, software, stipends, freebies, aimed at girls in computing. I never got one single offer for boys, not one, despite white working class boys being the lowest educational achievers in the country.

The past forty years of ignoring boys’ needs in schools and demonising masculinity is paying off it seems. You see it when you go into primary schools as a male teacher, the boys are actually excited to see you as they have very likely never had a male teacher.

So yes, Incels are a problem and their philosophy is sick, but society created it by making sure that the boys were ignored even when they were in desperate need of help.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

While you're right about all the things you said about problems with men, the big problem with this problem is that...well, the people going to the need for "transmaxxing" and allegedly fighting for men's rights secretly don't care all that much about men's rights. This was shown over the weekend by how shocking that the guy in Ecuador who self-ID'd as a trans woman solely because 'becoming a mother' was the only chance he'd have of getting custody of his children, shows the difference between the people transitioning for genuine men's issues and to break through the profound unfairness of society for a man.

These men going to this point, on the other hand, do not give a shit about all of that. Men like this might be one of the biggest enemies to actual men's rights in society because the only "men's right" they care about is the claimed right for them to be entitled to a beautiful woman sitting on their penis. It's an enemy of men's rights, and even an enemy of trans rights since enough of these shitstains not only did transmaxx, but the trans rights discourse said "yes, you are absolutely entitled to get sex with lesbians" giving these bastards their way...which is the whole problem.

The real issue is that not only is u/LtGreenCo right for "they transition because they're told it will make you not repulsive and will get you laid", indeed, trans discourse has said "even if you are still completely repulsive and only become MORE repulsive by transitioning...we'll make it our personal mission to get you laid if you join us".

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it all plays into that, but none of these alone is enough to explain it.

The issue I think comes twofold where we've been focused on supporting women and other traditionally marginalized groups get access to industries where they've been in the past, we're ignoring another traditionally marginalized group, anti-social nerds, and if anything making some of their traditionally somewhat nerd friendly areas more and more hostile towards them. Then we've also got a very non-confrontational culture that is enforced by HR. Within my friend groups, I can call out behavior that's gonna get them ostracized, call them stupid fucks for creeping out girls wherever we're at and they'll either learn or think I'm an asshole and run away crying. But they can't do shit otherwise. At work? Even the most diplomatic approaches, could get me written up. So there's no point to stick my neck out for the poor clueless nerd that is creeping out all the women. He's just gonna get a sexual harassment complaint at some point from someone who sees him as a stepping stone on the corporate ladder.

Couple all that with social media cult mentalities and how the "troons" have all but colonized every online nerd space it's little wonder we see this pipeline.

[–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well, your excuse explains the transmaxxing format in a different, more lenient way on paper. There's a reason I would say "what began with an apple must end with a horse. What began with demonizing gamers ends with God Mode Cheat activated"- because troonery is a cheat code for these men to vault from the bottom of Oppression Olympics (where anything done to you is fine and dandy, and indeed you deserve all of it and more, and if you complain you deserve double the pain), to instantly get to the top of Oppression Olympics (where you deserve everything you could ever want and more).

This also plays a role in how the troons act, since these are men who hate and resent women because they couldn't fuck them...so all of their demands can boil down to "they want revenge against women for marginalizing them and ruining their lives...and if that revenge includes their being allowed to forcing the women to fuck them, so much the better."

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I understand the game they are trying to play here but that's not really how real life works. We've just gone from annoying childish nerds ejecting their toys from the pram when someone says something that hurts their fee fees to annoying childish nerds in a dress ejecting their toys from the pram when someone says something that hurts their fee fees.

The Oppression Olympics like most bullshit in life has a cheat code to win, it's called not playing at all. Like any stupid game that isn't fun, just don't play.

Now if you do actually want casual sex sure, you gotta play at the dating game. And if you're losing the dating game because you're an unlikeable nerd, then yeah you're not going to start suddenly winning by flipping the rules and saying you're a chick now. It's like changing your DND class from Warrior to Wizard. Your strength is middling and you make a poor warrior, switch to wizard and be OK with the low strength, but your magic is crap anyway so you're a poor wizard regardless of what wand you use.

The best way to not play the game is to just be yourself. Of course incels have the problem of not understanding the basic ideas here. You can be yourself and do the MGTOW shit, and to some degree you should, but not driven by some idiotic hatred of women. Why would you even want to have a relationship with something you hate? It won't work out.

Instead you gotta go your own way but not let your life be directed by some stupid hatred of others, you'll eventually find someone else also going the same way as you and you can then both be going the same way together.

Granted you have to be going a way that actually gets you to meet people, which is the classic incel failing. I see it alot with young people. "My hobbies are watching media and playing video games, I have a hard time making friends, I don't want to drink, go to social engagements, play sports, or pursue other hobbies, how can I make friends?"

Well if you hate having fun, I guess Church is a good social option? Though maybe that's a bit too exciting.

[–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

While that's true, ultimately the big problem is that even then, the issue for men is that the game goes past "the game is rigged against them, so just choose not to play", and in many times roars screaming to "oh no, you don't GET to not play. You get in there, and you lose, and you raise our hand and say we win and we're better than you!" This, of course, can be bullshit, but if your only aspects of life are "be online or maybe go to a job you hate where someone will knife you...not even so they can get ahead because you're so worthless at the job, but just because they CAN", then eventually your only hope left is to grasp at any straw you can to even have a chance at victimhood and, thus, victory.

This is doubled since the one overarching part of the online society where pretty much every group: Sex, gender identity, sexuality, race, shit even fandoms, are all so utterly tribalized online that the only shared characteristic between the majority of the online generation is a deep-seated true hatred of their "other" to the point that most people of this generation would gladly trade their happiness for the other's misery. The only reason these people get most of the press is, again, Oppression Olympics views "punching up" to be the more victimized people's moral imperative and, indeed, being filled with hate towards your "majority" is one of the greatest acts of social justice that is humanly possible, while the "majority" being filled with hate towards the people hating them is the most evil thing that has ever been done by anyone in all of history. It seemed to be ending and people were respecting other groups as equal, and then it came roaring back and took a turn for the worse to "you're not like me in even the smallest way, so you are an inhuman monster and anything I do to you would be 100% justified and, indeed, the single most heroic thing any human has ever done in all of history."

You end up with issues like this, but also all of the other problems of society: How politics has become tribalized/how the people with power have taken more and more and left the world with less and less (politicians/rich movers and shakers feasting on the people's overt hatred makes you fish in a barrel to them), the rise of atrocities like mass shootings (if you're so radicalized you truly don't see other people as anything more than monsters and you're so in a hole you expect and are planning to die in your attempt to get revenge, it's bound to happen)...and basically most of the problems in the world right now. There's a lot of far bigger fish to fry due to this issue before we even sniff "some people can't get laid and they're butthurt about it."

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The problem is people don't see their options. There's a lot of problems with the way the world is but a lot of the time you can simply tell the people who are trying to bully you I to playing their zero sum no win games to fuck off and nothing bad will come of it for you. It's a lesson in maturity many learn too late, but there's no point in trying to be diplomatic with someone who intends to not play by the rules and do whatever they can to hurt you to get ahead. You can however indicate that fucking with you is a zero sum game where both sides will be annihilated, and they'll either go after someone weaker and easier, or they'll blunder their attack and end up just shooting themselves in the foot, so rarely if ever do you actually have to engage in MAD doctrine.

Really there's a nice little two letter word "no" that will be of much use to anyone who doesn't want to play silly games. There's more to life than simply what you see in the media. It's a fun house mirror of reality.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People may not see the options, but that's also the problem there: It's a zero-sum no-win game because another lesson in maturity people learn too late is the dual-edged sword of "no man is an island" and "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." When you add the people bullying you into these zero-sum no-win games already decided you WILL lose, they'll think of a reason or even make one up to and lie you did it (and who cares if they lie? It's your word against theirs, and who'll believe you? You're a [insert thing they made up]!)

...they also use those facts. Look at the 'one trans person who didn't even work there cried twansphobia to a person at a game company and got them fired' and it's part of it. You choose to tell them to fuck off? Your boss won't. Or THEIR boss won't. Or their boss's boss won't. And they're willing to go all the way up to the board of directors who don't know you from Adam and will respond "shutupshutupdon'tcaredon'tcareOHMYGODIDON'TCARE just fire whichever peasant they're complaining about before their whining causes the stock price to drop". And if you're self-employed? Your suppliers won't, your customer base won't- and even if there's more people who also told them to fuck off, you just saw your customer base Thanos'd and could be the difference between survival and failure. And if it's personal life, your family might not, your friends may not. And all of them have the double whammy of "they may believe the asshole, or they may be afraid of what the asshole will do to them because if they support you, the bell will toll for them too".

The word "no" works, but it doesn't work for terminally online obsessed stalkers who will stop at nothing to defeat you.

[–]wylanderuk 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Hmm I watched a youtube vid about this and if its accurate there is fair amount of "people are generally nicer to me as trans woman than a man" which ties in nicely to the already out there "being a trans man is not as easy and good as I thought it was", being a man is lonely compared to being a woman".

This might actually help spike both feminists and TRAs talking points...Which would be glorious IMHO.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Of course. And that's the big issue as well. There's definitely better treatment for women than men in society, but the fact these are incels talking about transmaxxing is the telling point they don't care about all of those issues men face. All they care about is someone getting their pee pee wet, and they don't care if they have to claim it's a she-pee in order to do it.

[–]wylanderuk 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think its one or the other, but a combo of both.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'd WANT to believe it's a combo of both, but incels are the ones who ruined men's rights because they make it clear they're a single-issue bloc: "And why can't I have sex with anyone I want to have sex with? We should be able to FORCE people to find me attractive so I can have sex with anyone I want!"

Snarts are the only one to hear that and say "You're right. Become trans and we vow we will get you laid"- hell, even the big MRA boogeymen like Andrew Tate/Jordan Peterson/etc. can and have told the incels "Hit the gym, clean your room, learn to love yourself, try to be a man worth someone else's time, and stop whining about how you can't get laid" when those people try their whining.

[–]wylanderuk 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nah incels are a attack vector against MRAs, just like MGTOWs are and PUAs used to be.

I mean technically I am a MGTOW (long before I ever heard of it), but its not a political stance or ideological stance for me. Basically my picker is broken and I don't find juice is worth the squeeze.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah incels are a attack vector against MRAs, just like MGTOWs are and PUAs used to be.

But the difference is that with MGTOWs, their driving motivation ("the game is rigged against men, so I choose not to play") compliments the true MRAs want ("the game is rigged against men, we would like these specific things worked on to make the game no longer rigged against men anymore and then we'll be happy.") By contrast, PUAs and incels' driving motivation is "I want to have sex, and I really don't care what I have to do in order to make that happen", which has nothing to do with men's rights and only perverts the ultimate goal of "leave the game less rigged against men."