all 20 comments

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are virtually no coherent arguments. Which is why discussions with the activists typically don't go anywhere. They aren't concerned with understanding the phenomenon they simply wish to further what they already believe to be unfalsifiably true. It's like a creationist at a science conference, it's perfectly fine to posit the theory that life is designed by a higher intelligence, but the creationist isn't saying , here's a theory of mine that fits the evidence I see, they're instead interpreting the evidence to fit into what they already know to be true and cannot be convinced of otherwise. So evidence that doesn't fit will be disguarded or attacked as false and irrelevant evidence that seems to suggest they are right will be given a huge focus. It's a make the facts fit the theory approach rather than making a theory to fit the facts approach. It's a common human failing. All too rampant in many different ways. The recent trans movement falls into this same pattern.

They aren't dropping the brain argument because there was never an argument there to be had in the first place, they're only interested in converting you into their cult or attacking and demonizing you if you cannot be converted. They'll simply move back and forth and create novel arguments and theories as quickly as they can and move onto the new ones before anyone can establish their legitamacy through more rigorous debate or experiment.

The other problem comes down to what is essentially sociopathic behavior.

They also bought up non binary and claimed you can be a girly girl, dress like a girl but not feel like a girl and feel more comfortable seeing yourself and being perceived as non binary.(TBH i've never seen a NB like this

I will fully agree that "non-binary" exists in this manner. You can be, anyone, do anything possible, and not "feel" like you are that which you are. I simply say that your self perception is useless to everyone else and a meaningless concept when it comes to describing what you are. A fireman that feels like a police officer means what? Exactly? A fireman isn't defined by the uniform, or the name, but by what they do, put out fires. A fireman could certainly dress like a Catholic nun and still be a fireman. Although we'd certainly point out such a concept would be silly because catholics don't wear fire protection during mass, it wouldn't at all change that the concept of "fireman" is defined by what a person does, not what they think.

Likewise a woman is not defined by how one feels. I don't know any useful way to describe what being a woman, or a man, or a human, feels like. I only know what I feel like. It's meaningless for me to try to grasp what part of my existence feels like me because I am a man or a human or whatever, I can't be something else I can only speculate. We are all simply ourselves and have no experience being anything other than ourselves.

What I can say though is that there are two clearly distinct categories of human from a functionally reproductive standpoint. There's no way to argue against that. You have three options in humans. Ability to impregnate. Ability to be impregnated. And infertile. And that's it. An infertile man is still a man, just as an infertile woman is still a woman, since we recognize it as a disability and not a separate category of human. Someone born without legs is not a new species. They are simply a human born without legs.

Intersex conditions certainly create some vague edge cases but the current arguments aren't really about them. I don't think any women really care about someone born with an intersex condition who is for all intents and purposes a woman in appearance but cannot get pregnant and technically has male chromosomes, using women's facilities. But again there are edge cases and we should be at the very least considerate of these and have legal options available for legal sex changes on documents and the like. There are situations that arise where it can be reasonable and fair to do so. It is however quite rate and not at all related to the typical transexual experience or current social issue.

As for whether or not the brain is structured differently? Hormones and certain other sexual differences do create some statistical average differences between the sexes. Male brains are expectedly bigger than female brains. Males are larger than females in general though.

Of course some males are smaller than some females so you can't simply look at two brains and make an accurate judgement on what gender the brains are.

The main reasons why the brain argument isn't relevant to the current cultural discussions around this though is simply because brain scans aren't used to diagnose gender disphoria. And can't be used because we have no clue how it works up there.

I'm all for having the discussion and research done on the brain to see if there are sexual differences and if that might be a correlation between that and sexuality. But I don't think society is necessarily ready to accept the findings of that. Anything that might indicate that men and or women are better than the other is not politically viable and such research would be suppressed. For example while I don't at all prescribe to this idea that all women are stupid. As there are many very intelligent women much smarter than me out there. But I do think that if you took the entire population and averaged everything out you'd find that women are more "average" than men. And that men are more extreme, in both directions. Extremely intelligent, and extremely stupid. Now how much of this is culturally influenced and how much is due to biological reasons is another debate that I don't think can ever truly be determined exactly.

[–]OuroborosTheory 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

you can even get the same thing in mainstream feminism: one prof will say "this is all genetic" and another says "this is all socialization," and they won't even be published in the same magazines; give four undergrads four envelopes with contradictory messages that say "patriarchy is what causes harm to women," "patriarchy is what benefits men," "patriarchy is what benefits women by patronizing them as too peabrained and dependent to be responsible for their own actions," and "patriarchy is whatever harms men, since men made the systems imposing the double standards" they'd all bob their heads

it's also why people misunderstand peer review: it's not "does article X say something new in the sum total of collective knowledge of our field," it's basically "does the article passes the basic level of professional writing and avoids some of the basic mistakes when you're unintentionally (or deliberately) about to screw up in a way the field sees a lot?"--like if a geneticist announced that she'd hunted down her subjects' grandparents and great-great-grandparents until she found a felon, or if a political scientist drew conclusions about how peace happens by studying Europe 1872-1913, 1919-38, and 1946-1988 (and these are real cases)

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well it's what I would call the "scholar fallacy"

I might have a BS in bullshit. Be an expert in the line of bovine scat and its contents. But that doesn't necessarily give me cause to comment on guano. And if I say something stupid like "male bats pee standing up", and some uneducated country bumpkin laughs at how stupid it is, it doesn't mean the bumpkin is wrong and I'm right simply because I've got the BS in BS.

Scholarly writing and universities are all about making content for grants and shit. There really isn't much we can point to that isn't influenced heavily by the economic realities. In many ways a researcher isn't much different from a YouTuber, one makes content to satisfy those giving them grants for whatever reason, one makes content to satisfy the dual needs of viewers and advertisers. Both are beholden to kiss the hand that feeds them.

Education is no substitute for wisdom. The uneducated bumpkin may be smarter than the cloistered scribe, although one must understand that the difference in communication style doesn't bely intelligence.

I think most of the issue comes from journalists though. Also beholden to make content. They'll sensationalize any scientific papers they can get ahold of. "Scientists find a new Earth!" Being the headline for an article that actually says "scientists find evidence of possible planet similar to the size of earth with a margin of error of several hundred percent, located in a possible orbit that brings the temperature to several thousand degrees" you know just like home.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

The brain theory is probably even considered transphobic. TRAs insist that gender is purely a social construct based on stereotypes, and any connection to biological sex at all is transphobia.

[–]jacques1102[S] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The problem is that without the brain argument these people have no arguments as to why they think they're the opposite sex, except maybe a weird desire to being one.Seriously, i sometimes wonder how this ideology has survived for this long if it seriously has no leg room to stand on.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They think we should conform to sexist stereotypes. They want to fit everyone into social categories for political reasons.

[–]OuroborosTheory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

they always circle right back to the vilest stereotypes, like the Smithsonian "Black people can't be expected to have a good vocabulary or show up on time or bathe" poster (good Lord)

it's just like how r/Atheism always sounds more like a Chick tract than Carl Sagan, because they're just not AWARE that "Da Church imposed the death penalty for reading and the proof is nothing was written down!" isn't something even the snake-handlers believe; social hegemony, baby!

[–]LyingSpirit472 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

On the plus side, if they say the brain argument is faulty, and they say the stereotype argument is faulty, then this person nearly cracked through and told you outright what it always has been: "I have no skills and am a boring human being personality-wise, but Mommy told me I was a special little snowflake and I wanna be SPECIAL TOO!"

[–]jacques1102[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah,if there truly was overwhelmingly evidence for the brain argument then TRAs would demand medical staff to use MRA scans to prove whether someone was trans or not.Yet i've seen some legit claim that people should translate regardless.Honestly, i don't think we'll ever find any brain evidence of transgenderism because really there's no inner feeling as to what it is be a man,women or heck even non binary.Which is another reason why i believe the second theory is going to be true.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Transgenderism was such a rare occurrence up until 10 years ago, that society did not pay attention to it. I bet most people over 25 only became aware of this phenomenon because of South Park. Now its everywhere. It survived this long only because it was under the radar, and then censorship came along and made it impossible to criticise the ideology.

[–]Newzok 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a psy-op or covert marketing. Or both. Extremely demoralising either way.

[–]r2d2_21 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This statement directly contradicts the “girl dick” tho.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Actually it's the opposite. If gender is a social construct it's entirely possible for a girl to have a penis. If it's the brain theory though having a penis is at best neutral.

[–]Athelhilda4 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does it really matter if trans people have brains that are more similar to the sex they want to be? We don’t base reality on brain abnormalities.

[–]hfxB0oyADon't piss on my head & tell me it's raining. 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You'd need a brain to begin with in order to argue for a trans one.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]clownworlddropout 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Sure, but what you see in the scans is a gay brain, not a so-called trans brain. "Trans" isn't a real thing, it's a (dying) social construct, while being straight or gay is a biological phenomenon.

    [–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    There is some real evidence that homosexuals have brains more typical of the opposite sex. Which might mean that's really the only difference.

    [–]Newzok 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    gays have higher pitched voices

    That's a cultural affectation. All of this is affectation.

    [–]jet199 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    You have to have a brain to make a brain argument.

    [–]FlyingKangaroo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Although I barely discuss with troons, sometimes I observe their debates with other people and I think most of them are dropping it but those who still use it might manage to present it in some woke way. There must be still some portion who has a more “traditional” idea about the debunked brain theory but maybe they’re not so vocal.

    They would rather respond with “gender with a spectrum” or “there are different notions of sex and gender, aka biological, cultural, neurological, etc.” (which is also massively sexist, as the brain argument is, to say that cultural stereotypes dictate what is a woman so a man dressing in a feminine way could be perceived as such).