New definition of woman just dropped

submitted by Datachost from imgur.com

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]bife_de_lomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for responding. I don't think that man/woman or male/female are synonymous because they aren't the same type of word. Man and woman are nouns, and male and female are adjectives. A female human is a woman.

I, unlike some on the sub, think there is utility in distinguishing gender from sex so we can talk about the things that men and women do in society that don't relate to their biological state, but nonetheless are commonplace social constructs. This is the masculine and feminine adjective of gender.

I would quite strongly disagree that there is such a thing as being "more of a woman" or "less of a man" based on conformity with gender stereotypes. This exposes the oppression of gender and my hope is that one day people won't be blackmailed into thinking they're less of a man because they're not an athletic lumberjack.

To your last point, I see a difference between masculine presentation in a woman (like a tomboy or a butch lesbian or even completely GNC), and a person who actually wants to change sex (a woman who thinks they are a man, or a transman). Would you say the former category are also men because they present as masculine? I can't quite tell if you feel it's easier or more polite to acquiesce, or whether you feel both sex and gender play a part in man- and woman-hood.

I think we might actually agree on quite a bit, but I think offering politeness is my line in the sand that I can't cross at this point.

[–]proc0 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Would you say the former category are also men because they present as masculine?

Tomboys are still women, but if someone goes all the way and gets surgery, lifts weights, and gets a beard transplant, then it's easier (more pragmatic) to just call them a man. This doesn't mean that they are literally a man, but rather that they are in a sub-category of man, those who were born as women. More precisely they are trans-men, but the prefix can easily be dropped like many other words that are shortened when the appropriate context exists.

I would quite strongly disagree that there is such a thing as being "more of a woman" or "less of a man" based on conformity with gender stereotypes. This exposes the oppression of gender and my hope is that one day people won't be blackmailed into thinking they're less of a man because they're not an athletic lumberjack.

Yeah I don't think people should assign a moral value to being more of a man or woman. They should just be descriptors/archetypes that perhaps is rude to box people in. For the purposes of arguing whether a trans people should be call what they want to be called, I think letting men be feminine is already opening the door to this possibility. If a man can be feminine, why can't they go full feminine, including makeup, cosmetic surgeries, etc.? If we're ok with stretching those archetypes, then in theory it would be ok if some men are extremely feminine to the point that for practical purposes in society we call them a woman. The very important caveat here, is that everybody would know that they are really a trans-woman, and that you drop the prefix to be polite.

In other words, unless we actually oppress people into strict gender role boxes (shaming gay men, etc), we're allowing for trans people to be part of society regardless of whether it's a mental illness or not. But stretching the archetypes doesn't mean that we deny reality when the details are necessary.