all 26 comments

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

When did punk become so goddamned soft and faggoty?

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

2015

[–]Queen_Bread 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Punk is, in theory, about going against the current social trends and norms. So, by definition, anybody who unquestioningly supports the trend of the alphabet soup is the opposite of a punk.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s actually a common misconception about punk, even, if not especially, among punks themselves.

The truth is punk has always been left leaning economically and socially, and it made sense for a lot of activists to adopt this whole free speech/nonconformity thing back when the political right had a lot of power during punk’s heyday, but for a lot of these activists it was never about liberation or anything, it was about power. You see a lot of this on the right now, people trying to co-opt anti-authoritarian sentiment to advance their political careers and agendas.

The sad thing is, a lot of contemporary punks never really got the memo that their side ostensibly won and they had been exploited as useful idiots, and still see themselves as some sort of anarchist rebels even though that couldn’t be further from the truth. In a lot of ways it’s a cautionary tale for those who hate woke shit who see the political right as some kind of salvation.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even then, though, punk wasn't totally involved with any political movement. There were many left-wing/progressive punks in the time when the political right had power, yes, but the very nature of skinheads being a thing in punk shows there were a lot of neo-Nazis running around the scene as well.

The only true "spirit" of punk has always been being a rebel, and much like Rebel without a cause, whatever a punk is up against, the answer is "what've you got?"

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I can't say I know shit all about punk. I see it as a counter cultural fashion trend and those always end up attracting a bunch of otherwise borderline crazy people who will start drama especially towards anyone they perceive as adopting cultural norms. Without question they'll turn into toxic places cause the only people who have the time and energy to devote towards it full time are the people who are otherwise NEETs.

If it's just a fashion and asthetics thing it's great, but once you try to make it an identity it is doomed.

Frankly I think Enby is the new Punk/Goth/Emo/Hipster whatever counter cultural youth movement. Except they have corporate support now so they are just posers. Tradcaths will take their crown and the new subversive counter culture.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I see where you’re coming from with enby being the new goth or whatever, but as someone who has seen a lot involved with that type of counterculture, it really is not. Being punk or goth or hipster never demanded nearly as much from people as this trans stuff does. It’s so much more damaging.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've not seen a lot of it so I can't say. I agree the all encompassing identify stuff is way more cult like and the corporate medical intrusions into these spheres makes it much worse than simply a fashion movement. But at it's core I think it's similar. People want to reject certain social norms and do their own thing.

Like if it was just literally a case of "I want to dress more androgynous" I wouldn't care, I doubt most anyone would. But even with those you've always had the far edge cases of the extreme body modification people. I think it's similar to a drug addiction. People have self image problems and if it's just a case of changing how you dress to be happy no harm no foul. Clothes aren't permanent. Tattooing your eyeballs black and getting your tongue forked is. And there is pretty good reason why you don't wanna let kids make those decisions.

With adults it's much harder, I think it's a bad idea to do so and would argue against it but I believe adults should be free to make their own decisions even when those decisions might cause them problems down the line so long as they are entering into such decisions with a sound mind.

[–]INeedSomeTime 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can speak from a perspective of metal community. All it took you to be a fellow metalhead was sharing the love for metal music and then you just bought metal band's merchandise from official places or rip offs if you were too broke. You grew out hair and wore military boots. You attended metal concerts. You never expected from people to treat you any different. Only maybe your parents were annoying by complaining about your long hair. Meanwhile as enby you immediately demand from everyone to bend over, think 24/7 about your pronouns, making sure everyone refers to you as you want, you become a center of their attention since you said how dead naming and misgendering can literally hurt you, so whenever you have to be mentioned in 3rd person your friends wonder what pronouns to use and make sure not to slip up.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah see my experience in punk was much the same as yours in metal aside from the fact that it was always a little more explicitly political. My point is it didn’t demand all of this shit from people outside of it. I think there’s also an important distinction made that these subcultures tend to revolve around music, while the whole gender thing seems much more like a political party or a religion. There’s no art there.

[–]alladd 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

i mean yeah this is gonna get deleted for sure because punk is no longer an ideology about doing it yourself and bucking the system. punk scenes have become waiting rooms for people who won't take a bath and won't move out of the town they grew up in and is positively full up of queer babies who need validation and are politely asking for you to not call the quarter-inches "male and female" as they sing about how they don't give a fuck about anything and want the world to burn. it's a fucking sad scene.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hilarious and well said. Punk was great for many years but that’s all over now. For what it’s worth though I don’t think it was ever actually about wanting to watch the world burn for a lot of people; as it turns out a lot of them just wanted to burn down this particular world so that they personally could be the oppressors.

[–]LtGreenCo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was into Punk Rock in the 80s and 90s. Back then, while Punk lyrics were often political, the teenagers and young adults who were into it were more about the music than the politics. Gen X generally gave no shits about politics. We were the slacker generation; we gave no shits about anything except getting high and listening to good music. Yeah we were kinda useless but at least we didn't have all this tranny shit to deal with.

In the 00s it kinda looked like Punk was dying and I was well into adulthood and had bigger things to worry about than music, so I stopped keeping up with the industry. In fact it hasn't been until this thread that I even knew kids were still into punk. But from what you're saying it's a completely different culture now. Sad.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I definitely appreciated your perspective as an older punk fan. A lot of people around your age on the Reddit thread where I initially posted this are saying things like “fuck those bigots, in the 1980s we’d beat the shit out of Nazis that came around!” While Nazi skins were definitely a problem back then and from what I hear violent altercations would occur, I have to wonder how liberally exactly these redditors define the term “Nazi,” and how much of what they’re saying is even true.

Personally, I got into punk in the early 00s and as I said in my post things were always left leaning but pretty chill up until 2015 or so. I never really experienced much in terms of violence in punk firsthand, though as social media got bigger you would see more cyber bullying and call out posts, so that’s something. I supposed I’d like to emphasize at this point that while the punk community was never perfect, it was a hell of a lot better than what it is now, and the shift was sudden and palpable.

[–]LtGreenCo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

fuck those bigots, in the 1980s we’d beat the shit out of Nazis that came around!

LOL no. Yeah there were neo-Nazi skinheads back then but they were relegated to white trash communities and seeing one was like seeing a unicorn. They were not a big problem like people want you to think. Keep in mind the past has been retconned by SJWs to seem more racist than it actually was because that's the narrative they want you to believe so you'll buy into their anti-racism CRT horseshit. The reality is things are way more racist now than they were in the 80s and 90s and we can thank woke culture for that.

For kids in the 80s and 90s it was all about the music; it was how they defined themselves. Nobody defined themselves by their LGBTQ activism or how inclusive they were or whatever. They defined themselves by the music that made them feel the most emotion. Which in hindsight sounds stupid right? Isn't it more important to be politically active than to be obsessed with music? My answer is no, not when you're a teenager. A kid's only job should be to enjoy being a kid. IMO anyway.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, this honestly reads as much more truthful and realistic to me than the types of stories you read in books like American Hardcore or Our Band Could Be Your Life. I have always thought that if the American hardcore punk scene in the 1970s and 1980s was truly as chaotic and violent as described in media like that, there is no way it would have been sustainable for as long as it was.

It’s not that I think people like Henry Rollins or Mike Watt are lying by any means, I’m sure things like police harassment and violent run-ins with people outside of punk did happen, and there are some pretty high profile documented incidents. It’s just that all of this, like a lot of things, has gotten exaggerated over the course of these old heads telling the same stories over and over again.

[–]LtGreenCo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh I mean 80s Punk Rock culture was certainly more rowdy and violent at times and things did get better in the 90s. But if people are trying to say it was due to Nazi skinheads then they're full of shit. As someone who for years traveled to different cities to see my favorite bands play, in all those years I saw skinheads one time, in some shitty armpit of Indiana, and it was at a gas station; they weren't even going to the concert.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m definitely sure it got more tame as the years went on. In all of my time going to shows I think I only saw one very small fight and afterwards people talked about it for week. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Nazi Skinhead in person, for all of the hype they get.

[–]LtGreenCo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm just one guy so who knows maybe I just got really lucky. But honestly back in the day, in my experience at least, people generally weren't racist and it was very hard to find someone who truly was - someone who truly feared and hated other races. It just wasn't a thing. The most racist thing you'd encounter was maybe someone telling a racist joke, but it was always done for comedy and not out of hatred.

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Again, that tracks for me and my guess is that yours is the more typical experience. I have seen no Nazi skins and very little violence but have heard a lot of big talk from social justice types about “punching Nazis” in the scene.

[–]musky-the-nigger 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now do a post about the intersection of Judaism and punk rock

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Has it been deleted yet?

[–]RuinedSpiral[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s still up, with like 7 or so downvotes and one response from a “gay transman” (so a straight woman) that said something to the effect of she’s glad I don’t consider myself punk anymore and that I should feel bad about “repeatedly breaking rule 5,” which bans transphobia. She also asked why I was even posting on the thread. I would have responded but she appears to have blocked me.

Anyway, I’m a little disappointed overall with the response. If I was banned or even mass downvoted, that I could understand, but at least if I was going to be mildly ignored, I was hoping I’d at least get some DMs in support of me, as I know there are a lot of people in punk who have to have experienced what I have. Feel like I’m the crazy one even though I know the punk community is burying its head in the sand over this particular issue.

[–]akriti 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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[–]akriti 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]princerajkerala 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Punk is, in theory, about going against the current social trends and norms.