all 48 comments

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

There is nothing misunderstood about it. If you want to have sex with a minor, you are a danger to children and society should treat you accordingly.

End. Of. Discussion.

[–][deleted]  (28 children)

[deleted]

    [–]LyingSpirit472 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

    If a person who is attracted to children wants to seek therapy and work to overcome this attraction, they deserve the right to seek therapy and get the help they need to be cured of this mental illness without automatically getting punished for admitting to the attraction in seeking help.

    ...but the second you act on it and abuse a child, you lose all sympathy forever. Then, woodchipper.

    [–]jet199 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

    Therapy makes paedos more likely to offend because they just learn new ways to justify their behaviour.

    [–]LyingSpirit472 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

    Even if there's a small chance pedos will be more likely to offend and learn ways to justify their behavior with therapy, there's a astronomically higher chance that the rehabilitation plan of"pedos face the wall" will lead to making pedos more likely to offend. If the rule becomes "If I molest a child, I will be killed. If I consume CP, whether drawn or real, I will be killed. If anyone finds out I'm attracted to children, I will be killed. If I try to seek help to cure this condition, the doctors/therapists are duty-bound to call the cops and I will be killed"... well, in that case more and more people will go to "...well, if I'm going to be killed no matter what, then I might as well molest a child and at least fulfill this one sexual fantasy I have before they kill me."

    This is more exacerbated because most offending pedophiles were, themselves, molested as a child, which means inevitably to really stop pedos, you'll also have to give the child they molested the woodchipper as well (can't give them therapy, they'll justify offending in the future amirite?)...which will only give the pedophile even more power over their victim since "...if you tell anyone what we're doing, they won't just kill me, they'll also kill you for it..." is guaranteed to keep kids silent about their abuse.

    The amount of problems for just "pedos face the wall" vs. "let non-offending pedophiles seek help without fear of arrest" is so great that if someone says "pedos face the wall" as the only way to do it, I have to assume they, themselves, are a pedophile trying to plot to put things on easy mode.

    [–]DirewolfGhost 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    Woodchipper the pedo, castrate the child, guillotine the parent? Just a joke.

    The funniest thing is the establishment is losing legitimacy because they can't hold their pedo blackmail circles together. Too many loose ends.

    [–]jet199 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    This is just bullshit and not how offending works at all.

    The main thing stopping paedos offending is the social shame and hate.

    Any indication that child rape is acceptable and offending rates go up.

    It's not a small change that paedos offend more if given therapy, it's a large percentage observed over and over again.

    It's not a large chance paedos will offend more if there is hate and strict punishment, that's literally the opposite of what happens every time.

    Men, yes even men, will not sexually abuse people if their lives are at risk and they think they will get caught.

    You seem to have fallen for the lie that sex offenders just can't help themselves. This is nonsense. They can help themselves which is why they can spend years getting into a position of trust or years grooming a victim before acting at all. It's planned.

    You have also fallen for the lie that most paedophiles were abused as children. They often concoct a story of a bad childhood to get sympathy but compulsive liar do that. Research shows torturing animals as a child is more likely to lead to someone abusing kids than being abused themselves. These people are psychopaths and sadists. And that's a horrible myth to repeat as abuse victims often avoid having relationships or kids because they are scared of become abusers when that's actually not a risk (more so their kids are at risk because abused victims tend to let questionable people into their lives).

    Sorry you understand how human beings work.

    [–]LyingSpirit472 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    This is just bullshit and not how offending works at all.

    Never before in the history of humanity have the words "no u" been as true as they are right now.

    The main thing stopping paedos offending is the social shame and hate.

    Social shame and hatred does nothing stop people from doing something unsavory- if someone REALLY wants to commit an offense, they don't care they're breaking a social taboo or will be hated for doing it. EVEN ASSUMING for one second the "a sexual preference will be acted on" claim you're making, then it also comes into play for "Love conquers all" overtaking social shame in sexual preference, and the response of a pedo to social shame and hate would be "I'm in love with this child, even if I'm breaking a social taboo and will be hated for it, it's worth it so we can be together, and our love is so pure and true it'll make people understand". That's why the concept of punishment exists- to make sure if someone does decide they don't care about social shame or hatred, they WILL have a notable consequence that will not be good for them.

    Any indication that child rape is acceptable and offending rates go up.

    And likewise, any indication that punishment is too draconian leads to people committing even worse crimes than they normally would. "The penalty for being late; death- the penalty for revolution; death" would come into play.

    It's not a small change that paedos offend more if given therapy, it's a large percentage observed over and over again.

    Even therapists/rehabilitation workers know that for it to work, the person has to truly want to change and get better. If someone is actively seeking help themselves, that's a pretty good sign they WON'T reoffend. The people forced into therapy/rehabilitation are the ones who'll fall off the wagon and reoffend.

    It's not a large chance paedos will offend more if there is hate and strict punishment, that's literally the opposite of what happens every time.

    On the contrary- part of punishments working is that it needs a sliding scale of punishment so that there's always something more you can lose. This is important because once someone truly has nothing to lose, they are more dangerous than they will ever be because you can't take anything else away from them...if anything, they're defending themselves if they keep going further and further down.

    Strict zero tolerance punishments lead to people who are already caught for something on the minor end of the crime now having nothing to lose, and so they'll commit even bigger atrocities of crimes than they normally would. I mean, you can't put someone in the woodchipper twice.

    We're even seeing this in real time as zero tolerance bullying policies -> bullies weaponizing that policy to hurt their victims more -> the victim goes into a realm of hopelessness where they can't get out of it -> they pass the event horizon of "it's him or me. I need to kill my bully if I want to survive", and from there "...they can't give me double the punishment, especially if I plan to die in the attack, might as well get everyone else I don't like" -> more school shootings.

    Men, yes even men, will not sexually abuse people if their lives are at risk and they think they will get caught.

    And likewise, if a person's life is at risk for something on the low end of the spectrum, then nothing is keeping them from doing things on the high end of the spectrum. Their life is just as forfeit for doing the smaller crime, might as well do the larger crime.

    You seem to have fallen for the lie that sex offenders just can't help themselves. This is nonsense. They can help themselves which is why they can spend years getting into a position of trust or years grooming a victim before acting at all. It's planned.

    You seem to know a lot about how pedos operate, and you want to make things easier for pedos to molest children and get away with it. Do you have something you want to tell the class?

    You have also fallen for the lie that most paedophiles were abused as children. They often concoct a story of a bad childhood to get sympathy but compulsive liar do that. Research shows torturing animals as a child is more likely to lead to someone abusing kids than being abused themselves. These people are psychopaths and sadists. And that's a horrible myth to repeat as abuse victims often avoid having relationships or kids because they are scared of become abusers when that's actually not a risk (more so their kids are at risk because abused victims tend to let questionable people into their lives).

    And yet, all of the statistics do show pedophiles were molested as kids in the beginning, which is what told them it was okay to have sex with children. Yes, abusing animals also helps- and just because many abuse victims do not doesn't mean every abuse victim is innocent.

    Sorry you understand how human beings work.

    It's a miracle! You finally said something right in your whole spiel. I DO understand how human beings work, and it's "when your back is against the wall already, you're more dangerous than you will ever be in your life!"

    EDIT: See? I can use formatting to show the important words too! I mean, it's not as good as bringing sock puppets from your pedophile buddies to say otherwise, but it works!

    [–]Queen_Bread 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I'm sorry but if you were to ask me who, between you and jet99, is more likely to be a closet pedophile, I would definitely say it's you.

    [–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Ok jet99, thanks for your alt account giving its opinion too. Drive off in your white van, put down the candy and let the little boy go.

    [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    You have also fallen for the lie that most paedophiles were abused as children. They often concoct a story of a bad childhood to get sympathy but compulsive liar do that.

    There's literal studies on this. On why pedophilia happens and what causes it. With this being the one of the top ones due to their brain development differing compared to a child's who wouldn't have been abused.

    [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    This is more exacerbated because most offending pedophiles were, themselves, molested as a child, which means inevitably to really stop pedos, you'll also have to give the child they molested the woodchipper as well

    This, fucking thank you! I'm depised the mental illness but I understand that these people need help. I was groomed as a child, and this "face the wall" worries me too. Because, what people don't understand that most pedos were also CSA survivors themselves. So, what then? Are we just gonna start going after survivors? Regardless if they do gain the illness or not? How will that even work?

    Not to mention, that the diagnosis age limit starts at 14 to 15 years old. Are we gonna make teengers (who, remember, were sexually abused as children and their brain developed this way because of the trauma) "face the wall?"

    [–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    So, what then? Are we just gonna start going after survivors? Regardless if they do gain the illness or not? How will that even work?

    That's the worst part: As I said, inevitably if it happened, it'd become: "The pedos face the wall -> to stop them at the core, they go after CSA survivors -> To start going after survivors, they start with the obvious one- the survivors who admitted their abuse, aka the kids who came forward -> Suddenly, the pedophile has a brand new weapon in their arsenal to keep their victims silent in "if you tell your parents/teachers/cops/an authority figure, they're going to kill you too, not just me".

    [–]iamonlyoneman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    they, themselves

    oh snap! shots fired!

    [–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Diagnosis starts at 14-15 years old (Most pedophiles themselves were also victims o CSA). You telling me we shouldn't help these kids then?

    [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Based.

    [–]FlyingKangaroo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Call me brutal, of course I know it’s somehow better if someone not offends than offends but... I feel that even paedophiles who didn’t abuse anyone yet but just realized that they have this “attraction” still should be isolated, they don’t deserve to live, they don’t deserve therapy in my opinion. We should use our resources (of skilled psychologists and psychiatrists) to help people with actual problems: depression, schizophrenia, trauma among many other examples of mental health problems.

    As some other users in the replies below said, therapy might help them to “justify” their evil thoughts.

    I know I’m not an expert, didn’t studied this phenomenon but I don’t want to believe that paedophilia is simply some disorder than can be cured or managed well enough to let someone live a safe/satisfying life. “Non-offending” is a buzzword created by nonces who wish some part of them would be slowly accepted by society. We should never allow that.

    While there is a mental health crisis in our world, we should strive to help those who are really suffering and needing help - like victims of these perverts for example and not waste time and resources for these monsters. Just for the safety.

    [–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Again, brutality isn't the reason not to go to this, but rather the same thing I've been saying: "If you give the non-offenders the same punishment as you give the offenders, then you remove that last shred of reason they have to not offend." If the penalty for merely realizing you have an attraction to children and trying to find a way to remove it is "aww, you want a way to remove this? Here. It's a bullet. The same bullet we give pedos who did it. Face the wall.", then those people who realize their attraction will know "the penalty for seeking help is death, the penalty for acting on it is death...well, if I die either way, might as well act on it."

    There needs to be some scale of punishment for every crime- even a crime like pedophilia. Just like you don't give the chair to a three year old who pocketed a piece of penny candy like you would to a serial killer, the person who realized an unhealthy attraction and who wants help to stop it should get that help while the person who molested people should get the bullet.

    [–]FlyingKangaroo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I understand that a scale of punishment is necessary - I never denied it; my support for death penalty, even though it’s not in the law system of my country, should not be equated with an idea to kill a three year old for stealing candy because that’s simply cruel and useless (but I guess that was a random example you wanted to use as comparison). I think resocialization is a difficult topic but I don’t oppose the whole idea of it: I can see for example that we can use it in various cases, for example for thieves, crimes which weren’t too violent, etc. But with that topic, it’s good to remember that not everyone in society would wish to live next to someone who is a paedophile, even just realized that this is their “attraction”.

    I feel that what you describe might prompt some people to commit crimes but not all, I can’t tell how much obviously. It’s all thought experiments after all. That’s why I say people who realize they’re like that should be isolated from everyone but then comes the question is it profitable to keep them secured and alive. Of course a person who actually abused someone is much worse who didn’t do it (yet?); however, it’s a quite dangerous idea to let people know that paedophilia is something that can be “harmless” enough to not be acted on. I don’t trust these who call themselves “virtuous paedophiles” - I see it more as a way of tricking society into accepting something evil, even on a small scale. Safety of children shouldn’t be sacrificed even for letting free people who admit to such abusive fantasies, with the idea that just talking to them and trying to help them to navigate this would be enough to keep them from committing crime.

    Perhaps this is also because I’m not willing to see it as any kind of disorder to be managed with therapy.

    Of course we have different views on it; let’s just hope the society won’t do anything risky with it, just as it did with normalizing various other dangerous behaviors.

    [–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Honestly, that ties to the big issue. Again, the goal should be to try and stop someone from acting on their impulse, but part of that is, if you give the pedophile who hasn't offended yet the same brutal punishment as the pedophile who offended (and given how inmates despise child molestors above all else, even "throw the non-offender in jail" is pretty much guaranteeing the same brutality), and since pedophilia is a sexual abnormality and wanting something reprehensible out of sex...if you do this, then suddenly you put the Pascal's Wager in the hands of the people who offend as the benefit over the non offender.

    Assuming it's "non-offenders can seek help of some type to not offend, pedophiles get the woodchipper":

    IF YOU DON'T OFFEND: You can seek help for this problem and try to move past it to live a normal life without fear of retribution for this impulse, assuming you never act on it.

    IF YOU OFFEND: Death. You must die for what you did to that child.

    Advantage: Don't offend.

    BUT, if it's "all pedophiles face the wall", it becomes:

    IF YOU DON'T OFFEND: Death. You must die for this evil thought.

    IF YOU OFFEND: Death. You must die for this evil thought that you acted on when you did that to the child.

    ADVANTAGE: The offender. They both died, but the offender got to live out this fantasy before they got killed.

    [–]jet199 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    That's not how human sexuality works and you know it.

    People are attracted to flowers but they don't want to stick their dicks in them.

    When paedos lust after kids they want to rape and abuse them. Its not just some detached attraction with no fantasy of action attracted. They imagine what they would like to do to those kids, they know how abuse would effect those kids and that knowledge turns them on even more.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Based.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Our lock then up.

      How do you stop a troon trooing? It's the same thing, a paraphilia.

      You can chemically castrate but they aren't going to be able to go back to being normal members of society.

      Some people with paraphilias just realise one day that it's stupid and stop but not that many.

      [–]IMissPorn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      That's probably true for some. But at least as many love kids, just like normal people love opposite sex adults. They would want a 10-year-old girlfriend or whatever but they certainly wouldn't want to hurt her. The smart ones understand that isn't really going to work out in real life and refrain. The dumb ones may not.

      [–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      You are deluded if you think that's true.

      The very nature of an adult having a 10 year old girlfriend would hurt her.

      Those adults know that. That's what they fantasise about. Controlling a child like they are a toy for them to play with.

      [–]IMissPorn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Like I said, some want that, others want something different that wouldn't work out in real life. If you have the stomach for it, it's easy enough to confirm this by looking at some of the the stuff they actually fantasize about in written from. Lolicon manga and such. I know that's kind of a weird "source", to cite, but I can't think of a better way to learn what pedophiles fantasize about than reading pedo fantasies.

      [–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      people have no control over their actions

      Is not a very good take but here you are

      [–]iamonlyoneman 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

      Devil's advocate: You want to throttle your mother in-law, should you be locked up?

      [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      If you act on it, yes.

      [–]iamonlyoneman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      That's what these people are saying. They are trying to draw a line between abusers and people who think about abuse.

      [–]chadwickofwv 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      No, they are not.

      [–]iamonlyoneman 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Tell us you didn't watch the video but use different language

      [–]loubag1997[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Declares her pronouns in her intro, excessively uses the word “folx”, calls pedos a “marginalized group”, calls the word pedophile a “hurtful insult” that is “hurled at people” to “slander” them, says being a pedo is “not a choice”.

      5 years ago this would be satire.

      15 years ago liberals would laugh at you for saying the slippery slope would get us here.

      [–]jet199 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      To be fair these ideas keep appearing over time.

      They pushed for acceptance in the 1970s and 1990s as well.

      Most of the men pushing for paedophile acceptance, because they just loved kids, were later convicted of child abuse.

      [–]iamonlyoneman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      • you can't distinguish "folx" from "folks" in audio with no transcript.
      • Pedos are even more hated than drunk drivers, more hated than wife-beaters. There is almost no place you can admit to being a kidfucker and be welcomed. That is a marginalized group.
      • I've used it, you've used it, pedophile is a slur

      [–]IMissPorn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      The pronouns are silly for sure, but if any group is marginalized, it's MAPs.

      [–]UrethraFranklin 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      There was a lot of reasonable discussion about this topic back on the old TIA subreddit, and I don't know how the saidit version feels in comparison, so I may be sticking my neck on the block here, but I agree with those who who argued that non-offending paedophiles should be given whatever help they need so they won't offend.

      The more children not abused the better (ideally 0).

      Everyone wants to boil it down to "face the wall", but that doesn't really solve the problem of non-offenders since they haven't actually committed a crime yet.

      [–]loubag1997[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Yes but I think we can all agree that normalizing it or destigmatizing it is a very real threat and these people WILL do it if we let them. Give them help individually, sure, but don't destigmatize or normalize it on a societal or cultural level, that will inevitably result in some fucked shit.

      [–]iamonlyoneman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      If "think you are the wrong sex and get surgery paid by your insurance" is normalized, then "have bad thoughts about kids but don't act on it and be able to get help paid by insurance" should be too. I'm okay with neither or both, but one or the other is retarded.

      [–]jet199 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      There isn't really a way to help paedophiles.

      These people have a sadistic paraphilia, it's not inborn. They have developed a fetish and fed it until it has become an identity to them. That's s a fetish for hurting kids. Paedophiles are always sadistic, harming kids mentally and physically is part of what turns them on.

      These are bad people. Therapy doesn't help. Castration or locking them up until they get too old to be bothered so much by sex are the only things which have much effect.

      Autogynephilia is also a paraphilia and you see how crazy the troons are and how rarely people come back from that once they've indulged. You need to realise paedos have much the same set of issues.

      [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      So a 15 and below year olds who are sexually abused during their childhoods needs to be locked up and/or castrated? Becuase a mental illness they did not want but was forced on them becuase of trauma, they should be subjected to castration and being imprisoned? Instead of getting help?

      Are you sure you're for child safeguarding? Becuase you seem to be forgetting that on important big detail of just what age this illness begins developing and being diagnosed.

      [–]ephrem_moseley 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Non offending pedophiles must only be permitted to be around other humans who look like The Rock.

      PERIOD.

      [–]r2d2_21 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      Why does she look like that?

      [–]iamonlyoneman 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      What leftist indoctrination does to a mf

      [–]ilovewhitepeople 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      fuck this white lady.

      if your attracted to kids, and want to stay alive, mandatory castration. not worth the risk to any child. adults should be held responsible and kids should be protected.

      [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Castration doesn't work. Also, you would be condemning minor pedophiles (diagnose starts at 14-15 years old) for mental illness they didn't want. That they developed from CSA during their childhood. Thus, putting the blame on them.

      Also, wtf is up with your username?

      [–]ilovewhitepeople 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      14 & 15 year olds can still harm 2, 3, 5, 10 etc, year olds. even if it isn't their fault, if they pose a risk to any child, it is the responsibility of society to protect the most vulnerable.

      white people are amazing. i didn't say anything disparaging about any other group or race. have you seen america's history, read any of the founding documents, seen any european architecture? have you heard people fantasize about living in norway, or denmark, praising their economic system. do you yourself live in a western nation, built by white people? if so, do you not see much to be grateful for?

      [–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      For non-offending pedophiles, those who understand it is a mental illness that isn't okay, they should be able to get help.

      The ones who try to normalize it and child molesters? They need to be locked up or removed.

      [–]loubag1997[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I hear this a lot but I gotta ask - what “help” could they possibly get that would be beneficial to anyone? Especially if their therapist ends up being THIS bitch?