all 36 comments

[–]Neo_Shadow_Lurker 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

There's a little paradox here that makes me very reluctant to sympathize with the "regret brigade" that is now gaining mainstream momentum: for one, we all know that TRA discourse is very immediatist when the subject is transition (it gotta be now, otherwise little jimmy will kill xerself) and they can be pretty insufferable in regarda to this, but on the other hand, most of the detrans were clearly lonely, young and prone to be groomed into this.

It's complicated.

[–]Peak_Condition 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

If a child was indoctrinated into a religious cult and then later escaped with physical and psychological scars then would you not feel sorry for them? The way I see it that's what happened here. I think both of your points are correct and can be summed up in one statement: TRAs groomed this kid.

[–]Neo_Shadow_Lurker 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

If a child was indoctrinated into a religious cult and then later escaped with physical and psychological scars then would you not feel sorry for them?

Well, if said kid pestered their parents and everyone around them who took pains to warn about said religious cult, even resorting to suicide baiting and emotional blackmail, then I would be inclined to not let it pass without at least an "told you so, dumbass".

It's kind of petty, but hey! I'm only human!

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Nasty people have nasty outcomes. Karma is a bitch.

Still doesn't mean that we can't have awknoledgement of the crazy cult like behavior and brainwashing going on, but it's not a coincidence that cults are filled with insane nasty people that can't make it in normal society so they gravitate towards them instead.

But that doesn't mean everyone involved is a sociopath, many aren't, and we need to not be nasty to them lest we turn them off further.

There's only one way to deal with suicide baiting, "this conversation is now over" and walk away. Gotta stonewall that and not respond at all.

[–]LyingSpirit472 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There's only one way to deal with suicide baiting, "this conversation is now over" and walk away. Gotta stonewall that and not respond at all.

No, no, facts and logic also works with suicide baiting: "...and?

Now that you've put suicide on the table, there are two possible ways this can go: Either you will commit suicide or you will not commit suicide.

If you do commit suicide, you'll be dead. Your opinion will no longer be a going concern. I have no reason to do what you say.

If you do not commit suicide, you just played your card and said you're only threatening it to manipulate me into giving you your way. You just proved once and for all you're all talk and you don't have the balls to do it. I have no reason to do what you say.

Either way, I don't have to do shit."

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes you are of course 100% correct, this is the breakdown about why the suicide bluffs are stupid, logically.

The point of the suicide bluff is relentless illogic though, it's emotional terrorism. The whole function of the gambit is to trap you by getting other people to jump in and defend them while demonizing you while taking attention away from them. IRL directly calling the bluff doesn't work and the best strategy is to simply stop playing the game and stonewall then as soon as the card is laid. Don't say anything to them then and there about it. If people call you out on it later you can simply claim the suicide threats triggered you and that you had to leave to protect your own mental health, true statement, paints your opponent in the negative light. Effectively calls the bluff without risking you. And gives you grounds for harassment charges should they approach you and do it again.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Honestly, though,even the strategy of stonewalling them doesn't work there, since the whole point of the suicide bluff gambit is that it's become a "Get Your Way Free" card. The reason the gambit works to get other people to jump in and defend you while demonizing you, is because once they play the gambit, anything you do or do not do, except "cave and give the person their way", is inherently seen as "you don't care if they kill themselves! That means if they do it, it is now your fault they did it so you literally murdered them!" Even claiming you were triggered by their threats will just be met with "well, if you were also a victim of it, then you should KNOW how important it was to not cause them to do it!"

With that in mind, ripping the hatred off like a Band-Aid and say "you want me to be the bad guy here? Fine, then. Say hello to the Bad Guy, but you're still not getting your way. Cope and seethe."

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hello Mr. Bad guy say hello to HR.

Vs hello HR I'm being harassed with Suicide threats from X and I don't want to talk to them anymore because it's negatively effecting my mental health.

Essentially "If I don't get my way I'll kill myself". Countered with "I'm going to kill myself if you don't stop threatening to kill yourself"

A perfect defense.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ultimately, though, this is where we're both wrong. We're both coming at the argument here through logic when the opponent is wholly illogical.

You're right with the first one and "the second you admit to being the bad guy, the opponent will go to HR and get you punished for defying them...but truth be told, they probably already WENT to HR, and in an HR case, because they're higher on the progressive stack they just GET TO WIN. You can show them acting like this in Macy's window, right in front of every HR employee in the company, all of whom visibly see them as the aggressor in the scenario, and HR will STILL take their side. They'd have to- HR will take the side of whoever will be more costly in a lawsuit if they sue, and more importantly, they'll discriminate against the person who won't cause them to lose their job if the person files a discrimination lawsuit. The mere threat of the TRA suing will make HR and anyone they please's head roll, but if you sue, then you WILL lose in court, and even if you win in court, the "court of public opinion" will take the company's side. The HR person might even get a promotion for "this cissie was sooooooooo MEAN to me for oppressing us for fighting the lawsuit filed by this poor innocent trans cinnamon roll who's just inherently incapable of doing nothing to no one, honest!"

Likewise, your "If I don't get my way I'll kill myself." "If you don't stop threatening to kill yourself I'll kill myself" logic fails when you remember these people are cluster B assholes and hypocrites. Even using a suicide gambit against them won't work because they truly don't care if you hurt yourself, they'd WELCOME the world losing someone who dare defy them, and it's okay if they use the arguments we're claiming against anyone else but not if anyone else uses them against that person.

[–]1-800-FUCKOFF 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That kinda leaves out the actual leverage they get from the suicide threat

  • I won't be there anymore, which sucks for you if you enjoy having me around.
  • If I kill myself because you wouldn't help me, you'll feel guilt.

Your opinion will no longer be a going concern. I have no reason to do what you say.

Yeah, I mean... Thar's why suicide baiting a stranger who doesn't give a fuck about you doesn't work. Friends and family though? Different story.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even with the leverage, that just distills it to the five-year-old threatening it on "if you don't do what I say, I'll kill myself and you'll be SOOOOOOOOOOOO SORRY and you'll cry and cry and say 'Oh I WISH I just gave them their way so they'd still be alive today!' but you won't be able to because I'll be dead an' literally everyone in the whole world's gonna know you caused me to kill myself an' know you murdered me an' everyone in the whole world's gonna HATE YOU FOREVER for this an' you'll have no choice but to kill yourself TOO!"- and that is why "if your opponent is arguing like a five-year-old, you have to respond like you would to a five-year-old."

Friends and family is a different story, but then it becomes "...yeah, you obviously hate me enough to commit a recognized act of domestic violence against me. If you choose to abuse me, you clearly aren't pulling your weight in this relationship and honestly I might be better off without you."

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Being fair, though, how many of the kids who did pester were also told by the religious cult as part of their indoctrination to suicide bait/blackmail people emotionally as well (there is proof that the cultists will say to the kid "no, no, you're totally suicidal because you aren't in your real body, if you don't get to it's a formality you will inevitably commit suicide" and telling kids who might not have done it "no, this is normal and okay"...if not flat-out telling the kids "if your parents won't let you transition, threaten to kill yourself and the fact that every parents' greatest fear in life is having to bury their baby will make them fold like a French umbrella and let you have your way!")

[–]Neo_Shadow_Lurker 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair point.

It's not impossible for all fo this to be a script given to them by the older TRAs.

[–]jet199[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's pretty much what happened when people join cults, yes.

What do you think happens?

[–]Neo_Shadow_Lurker 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not always.

There's people who join cults while being very low profile about it and others who are forced into it by parents, family or friends.

Most of the time they aren't as obnoxious as the TRAs, specially the teenage ones.

[–]IMissPorn 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I admit I sympathize with this guy less than some, because (if this is the case I think it is) he was already 26 or something when he did it.

This case where a 15-year-old girl was talked into cutting her tits off is a lot more horrifying to me (even if the consequences of that aren't quite as bad, I guess).

[–]On_WheelsWe need to secure the existence of the gay race 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We don’t reach full cognitive brain development till around age 25, and up — And this isn’t something we’ve just discovered. We’ve known this the whole time. Penny’s doctors knew. The entire medical field knows. In fact, it’s so basic, I learned this as a first year PSY student.

Wonder why...

Other than that the articles points a connection between trans-inclinations, issues with body image and autism. Wonder how common these last two are in trans people out there.

[–]lunarstrain 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know if you watched the whole thing but he had severe OCD. If you're not that familiar with the illness, it can cause delusional thinking. Like, the whole the FBI is out to get me kind of shit. So disregarding his diagnosis when it came to transition and then actively using it against him when he expressed doubts or even discomfort with getting his penis chopped is super fucked.

That's what makes me sympathize with this guy.

[–]Neo_Shadow_Lurker 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know if you watched the whole thing but he had severe OCD.

That's exactly why I wasn't specifically talking about him on my initial comment, but the influx of middle class entitled kiddies who are jumping into the trans bandwagon to gain clout.

These tend to be the most obnoxious and insufferable people around, all while being incapable of taking accountability for their actions.

[–]IkeConn 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

So he cut his dick off without a second thought. Bless his heart.

[–]lunarstrain 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No, no. He didn't want to, the medical professionals kept pressuring him to and blaming all of his doubts on his severe OCD. Honestly very cruel, when you have OCD that severe you're barely tethered to reality. There's a reason why it can cause psychotic breaks.

[–]IkeConn 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

His dick is still gone.

[–]lunarstrain 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, that's why he's suing the NHS.

[–]IkeConn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hope he wins and is an inspiration to others.

[–]TotoroDeams 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And now he can obsess over it being gone.

[–]IX-Hispana 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only "affirming" change you can do to your body is to get it in shape. It will boost your confidence, give you pride for your effort and discipline, plus it's well known running cheers you up. The mental effects of lifting are less well known, but I suspect scientists will find a "lifting high" eventually just like the "runner's high".

The trans stuff is just the most extreme example but it applies just as well to insecure girls getting lip injections or some stupid "empowering" tattoo.

[–]Rob3122 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I don't feel bad for it at all.

[–]Peak_Condition 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Any sympathy for kids who used to cut themselves or were anorexic? These social contagions come and go, this current one just happens to be profitable for the medical field as well. If we don't show empathy to the people who were caught up in this madness and who had the good sense to escape, then how are we any better than the TRAs who condemn detransitioners for their own crazy reasons?

[–]Chipit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is one of Saidit's paid troll accounts, here to disrupt the site. Pay it no attention.

[–]Rob3122 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

If I was getting paid to post here I'd be calling you guys a bunch of antisemitic, transphobic anti-vax and antiestablishment assholes. But those are the things I like about you guys!

[–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Didn't know Saidit had a budget for that sort of thing.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

NO. It's here to disrupt the site. There are powerful people who want free speech crushed. Saidit is a threat.

[–]Rob3122 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

None

[–]Peak_Condition 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Alright edgelord, have it your way.

[–]Rob3122 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ok tranny freak sympathizer

[–]RippoffOfLove 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not cool.