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[–]sodomytron 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor

your history channel education makes americans look bad. you have a single dimensional, official narrative take on historical events

[–]theFriendlyDoomer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That's a just a bunch of name calling. I'm not stupid on purpose and willing to learn if you have the time (and if you don't have the time it's fine -- but in that case, why start the conversation?).

But random internet stranger (that's you) saying something without any proof (which you're not offering) just isn't going to teach me anything.

[–]sodomytron 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

sorry i don't spoon feed 30 years of search engines on

[–]theFriendlyDoomer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you don't want to provide any proof of anything, I don't know why you want to make this one of your hobbies, but to each his own.

The one thing you highlighted was me saying Germany declared war on the U.S. So you do not think Germany declared war on the U.S.? There is recorded evidence of Hitler's speech. We would have focused all our energy on Japan if Hitler hadn't declared war. Churchill himself was glad Hitler did, because the U.S. might have stopped supplying as much to the U.K. (that's in the Wikipedia article above).

If we fought Japan for several years, perhaps Germany would have won one of the two fronts. In either case, they would probably be able to shift into a better defensive stance. I think the U.S. public could then have been convinced it was not worth it. . .

[–]Chipit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The US was waging an undeclared war against Germany in the Atlantic. US ships followed German merchant ships from Mexico, broadcasting their position to the British navy. My own grandfather was in the Neutrality Patrol in the Atlantic, where they attacked German naval vessels. The best-known incident was that of the Reuben James, where the US Navy ship positioned itself between the location of a known wolf pack and a convoy packed with war materiel headed for Britain. USS Kearny dropped depth charges on German U-boats while at peace. President Roosevelt announced his infamous "shoot-on-sight" order: that German U-boat "very presence in any waters which America deems vital to its defense constitutes an attack. In the waters which we deem necessary for our defense, American naval vessels and American planes will no longer wait until Axis submarines lurking under the water, or Axis raiders on the surface of the sea, strike their deadly blow—first."

What defense? We were chilling on our side of the Atlantic, why's our defense necessary in the middle of the ocean? And FDR just said their mere presence is grounds to open fire.

[–]theFriendlyDoomer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure. I'll agree with all of those things were happening. My point is still that by Hitler declaring War, FDR finally got what he wanted: the ability to openly prosecute a full war against Germany.

In the near future, we'll be doing Deep Fakes of leaders calling us out to start our wars. But that wasn't the case here.

[–]sodomytron 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

why

[–]theFriendlyDoomer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Because the U.S. up to that point had a long history of a) the Monroe Doctrine and b) demobilizing immediately after wars. Though we got dragged into WWI, we even demobilized right after it and started referring to that war as "the war to end all wars." War with Germany was a super unpopular idea in the U.S. I recommend William Manchester's book The Glory and the Dream for the background. Though FDR was in fact trying to build that support (and, sure, I'll listen to the theory that he allowed had the intel but let Pearl Harbor happen) he hadn't really gotten there. Hitler declaring war, an act no one but himself made him do, gave all the PR needed to get support for the two-front war.

Look at the actual history of U.S. in protracted wars, such as the Civil War (ie from the North's perspective) or Vietnam. The public gets sick of fighting them. Also, imagine the kind of warfare the U.S. had to do against Japan -- island to island, against suicide runs. In this timeline, we might have grinded through more citizens but not had the A-bomb in time to speed up the surrender of the mainland.

In the meantime, if Hitler wins the Soviet front, he has all the oil he needs. Or, if he wins the U.K. front, he can set up a much better defense against U.S. invasion.

[–]sodomytron 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

why

[–]theFriendlyDoomer 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

:)