SaidIt Survey : Which is worse - the thought police or the tax man?

submitted by JasonCarswell from media.dhakatribune.com

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[–]Tom_Bombadil 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Thought policing is way worse.

I'd rather pay taxes and be unhappy about it, than pay taxes and not understand why I'm giving my money away. That's the optimistic view. It could get much darker.

Like hating immigrants and blaming them for the problems with society.
Immigrants aren't trying to take anyone's guns.

Edit: I haven't read a single argument supporting the thought police over taxation.
I'm calling it:
Tax man wins the least-worse award!

Edit 2: The previous verdict was premature. Read on!!!

[–]OldManCorley 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

and blaming them for the problems with society.

Above directly blaming immigrants for societies problem is the understanding that unchecked illegal immigration could lead to problems in society.

Much in the same way that above "orange man bad", there's actually arguments against president Trump.

Fundamentalizing and removing nuances in the debate IS the result of the though police.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This is true. However, illegal immigration (by new arrival) is near an all time low.

The media doesn't report this inconvenient fact.
Additionally, record numbers of illegal immigrants have been deported since the beginning of Obama's presidency. Obama was called the deporter-in-chief for a reason. Bush started it. Obama, and Trump continued it. This isn't contraversial.

Above directly blaming immigrants for societies problem is the understanding that unchecked illegal immigration could lead to problems in society.

Unemployment figures are currently low, so that cannot be a significant issue.

What adverse effect is the result of the illegal immigrant population? Where are the existing problems?

[–]OldManCorley 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

However, illegal immigration (by new arrival) is near an all time low.

  1. That's not a counterargument.

  2. Even if it were, I'm not from the US so it's not a valid counterargument to my statement.

Unemployment figures are currently low, so that cannot be a significant issue.

Does those figures include those who aren't registered?

What adverse effect is the result of the illegal immigrant population? Where are the existing problems?

If you see no negative sides to illegal immigration, does that include human trafficking and exploitation of illegal immigrants as a particularly vulnerable group for both physical labour and sex work through economical slavery?

tut tut

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

However, illegal immigration (by new arrival) is near an all time low.

That's not a counterargument.

I was unable to find recent chart that showed figures for illegal immigrants in the US (2014 was the most recent). The lack of current figures isn't surprising as these figures wouldn't support the right narrative. If you can find them, then I'd love to see them.

Even if it were, I'm not from the US so it's not a valid counterargument to my statement.

Please clarify your statement.

Unemployment figures are currently low, so that cannot be a significant issue.

Does those figures include those who aren't registered?

No. It includes the individuals that are counted in the US as unemployed. I was under the impression that this was not an epistological debate, be but a debate of facts.

What adverse effect is the result of the illegal immigrant population? Where are the existing problems?

If you see no negative sides to illegal immigration, does that include human trafficking and exploitation of illegal immigrants as a particularly vulnerable group for both physical labour and sex work through economical slavery?

There are plenty of US citizens that are suffering from these same issues. Will deporting more illegal immigrants solve these issues you've cited? Nope. It's easy to self deport in the US, if things are worse here.

Deporting illegal immigrants to their home country is guaranteed to send them back to the conditions that they fled to escape. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants would prefer to stay in the US. They do not want to be deported.

Then there's the economic argument, where illegal immigrants do work Americans have little or no interest in doing.
Hotel cleaning, meat packing, migratory farm work, etc.

Hotels are desperate to find workers. Alabama had to quietly change their laws, because of desperate outrage from the agriculture industry. Fruit is dying on the vine.

I'm debating the facts on the ground. Obviously, human trafficking, etc. is awful. Is it reduced by hasher immigration policy? Where is the evidence? Do you have evidence to present that disputes my assertion?

tut tut.

Your condescension is premature.

Edit: formatting

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

In the US the unemployment numbers are rigged in how they count them. If you've been unemployed for more than 6 months or 2 years I think they stop counting you, even if you're still looking for work. Whatever the timespan, that's just one way to skew the count. If you're old "retired" or disabled they may not count you because you're collecting or out of the work force - but maybe you want or even need to work in hard times. Maybe you had a temp job for a week. They stop counting you. There are lots of ways the count is rigged. They want to look more successful than they are while they're dismantling the system.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I understand this. However, this is another red herring.

Do you agree that in January of 2019 (USA) most people can find work if they are looking to enter the job market? Is this the standard of specificity that is now required now to discuss immigration in the US? You realize that this is intended to derail the conversation..

What alternative would you propose? If we're discussing facts and we change the metrics, then there's no baseline measurement to refer to.

Are you aware of any preferable alternative to unemployment figures that won't be picked apart?

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Find what kind of work? Sustainable work? Part time work? Work that demands you also get food stamps? Work with out benefits? Temp work? Seasonal work? In the debt slavery job market?

Can you consider these work? Are they insults or survival?

This isn't a Trump thing. Bush and Obama were fudging the numbers too. I'm saying there are not legit baselines because "they" don't want them known. Like enemy casualty numbers.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We're in agreement. You are making my point for me.

Having stated that unemployment was low, I had to use the generally accepted unemployment standard (which has inherent obvious flaws; of which I was fully aware of), as a baseline for the sake of consistency. I don't think accurate figures are documents for the 'actual' unemployment. Even if I found them from a source, then they could easily be picked apart for including/excluding X, Y, or Z.

To avoid 'this' I referred to the generally accepted standard; flaws and all. :-/.

My friend, at this point you surely realize this. ;-)

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Now I do. LOL. I thought you were defending their figures.