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[–]wizzwizz4 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Can you think of any ways around this?

I've thought of trying to teach people techniques to find out who's really to blame for things, but detective work is always harder than scapegoating.

[–]sawboss 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Can you think of any ways around this?

Absolutely yes, but it is extremely unpopular. We have to learn to honor each other's individual liberty as much as we value our own. Consequently, we have to be willing to give up exploiting legal and political power to oppress each other. Yeah, it's that simple and that unlikely.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Ha! No, I meant ways around the scapegoating; solving the whole "liberty" thing won't happen at least until people can agree on what the word means.

[–]sawboss 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Not in the current environment of political tribalism.

I often wonder, "why the Jews?" I've done some reading which suggests certain reasons, but to my mind it all amounts to envy. I've never found anything which would convince me of the tired old theory that a small cabal of Jews run everything behind the scenes. (It might as well be Alex Jones' lizard-men.) People just seem unwilling to give up the notion that somehow, more than any other ethnic group, Jews are superlatively loyal to each other over any other.

All I can suggest is when you see such propaganda and know it to be false, just do some digging and demonstrate why it's a false narrative. As we've seen, it's not even that hard to do usually. The false assumptions come from emotion, usually resting on a foundation of other assumptions which are specious at best.

And I'm tired of it. Honest to God I can't even tell you how shameful and stupid it all looks to me. Even 20 years ago this kind of shit was so distant from mainstream thought that even bringing it up would get you laughed out of the room, or shunned. Now though, we see it coming from both "right" and "left" (as in the Women's March scandal). Why? It's sickening.

[–]AschTheConjurer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

My Phillipino flatmate and I decided to look into why antisemitism is a thing as well, about 2 months back, because as an Asian he quite literally has no fucking idea about any of it. I was especially curious, too because despite not being jewish (my mum did one of those 23-and-Me type DNA test things, results were "100% British/Anglo Saxon" according to her) I've actually been on the receiving end of a stereotypical skinhead's antisemitism because of my name, which is a bastardized version of the Hebrew word for 'Priest', and this guy used that as an excuse to home-invade me and my partner-at-the-time in order to extort our 'secret jew wealth' out of us. He didn't make it past the front door, thankfully - we'd been in similar situations before and were paranoia-prepared for this sort of thing.

Anyway, tangent aside: after looking into it for a couple hours, all we could find was, essentially, that people originally hated Jews because they "killed Jesus". It seems like pretty much all the conspiracy theories and all the antisemitism that's come ever since then has, at it's root, been a matter of:

  1. But.. we've always hated the Jews. That's just how it is.
  2. People making excuses for their words and actions after the fact, in order to retroactively justify their behaviour.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

people originally hated Jews because they "killed Jesus"

What, Jesus "King of the Jews" of Nazareth, a Jew Himself? Well, at least it makes more sense than the other explanations.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The hillel sect and pharisees put that on his cross as mockery. For Jesus never claimed he was king of the Jews.

Jess is what everyone should aspire to be.

The New Testement is full off truths. I'd also invite yo to read the Saying of Jesus, which is a book that only has Jesus's sayings and nobody elses.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the clarification.

[–]AschTheConjurer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I hadn't even thought about that. I had the airquotes there solely because I have huge skepticism towards all religions and the stories they created.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, they definitely killed Jesus. That's the consensus of historians using sources other than the Abrahamic texts. Whether Jesus was anything more than a very wise philosopher is what's in question (and many would say that it was never in doubt, but whether they say "yes" or "no" is hard to predict).

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Jesus was crucified as a fulfillment of prophecy, not because of Jews or even Romans. Only God can forgive sin, and it is through Jesus' sacrifice that we are forgiven.

There's also the prohibition of usury between Jews which doesn't apply when a Jew loans money to a non-Jew. The notion seems to be that at various times in Europe affluent Jews loaned money and charged interest. People who could not pay their loans were subject to losing their property. You can bet that would engender quite some bitterness. Turns out that in the early 20th century Germany financed their military through borrowing, and while I don't have a source to confirm this it might be reasonable to imagine some of those wealthy financiers were Jews.

[–]AschTheConjurer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I can guarantee there were times in history where jewish people did dodgy shit. It falls into the problems with generalizations that all generalizations do, though: The bullshit of the 10% gets attributed to everyone, which isn't fair. I've been on the receiving end of discrimination and hate based on every factor of who I am as a human being, from my race to what's between my legs to my hobbies to the fact i wont align with the left or the right politically. As much as possible I try to narrow down to as small and specific of a group ad I can whenever I'm talking about shit I don't like or disagree with in a public context (different when I'm at home talking shit)

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The pharisees and hillel sect of judaism killed jesus. Jews because they, during babylonia times and afterward utilized usury on gentile nations where Christians were not allowed to. Now Rome has broken that promise and predatory usury is back in session for Rome and the Jewish sects they hired to hold their money. The hatred stems from financializarion, usury and debt. JESUS WAS KILLED BY THE HILLEL sect and the Romans for trying to restore the JUBILEE YEAR to annul sin and REAL DEBTS.

Jesus also was the son of god.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Now though, we see it coming from both "right" and "left" (as in the Women's March scandal).

I had to google it, found this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/23/us/womens-march-anti-semitism.html

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/276694/is-the-womens-march-melting-down

So it doesn't really surprise me , the whole stuff is full of cringe. Some movements are about "inclusion" they're about reductionism, they're based on self-centered impulses that center around a part of someone's identity, their tendency seems to be to repeat the process and move towards narrower and narrower aspects about identity.

It's the logic of:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[–]sawboss 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The antisemitism has always been in Feminism though. It is only recently that they have to publicly own it. I don't know why they get a pass on it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You could dig into how some anti-semitism is funded and propagated by the Zionists themselves. That'd be a nice slap you in the face type meme. I imagine you were after a different sort of answer though.. hmm...

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's not that slap-in-the-face. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. That hypothesis doesn't fail the absurdity heuristic.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews

I'm saying that Zionists are responsible for some acts of anti-semitism in the US, like "hoax" hate crimes. There's some kind of an allegiance between Zionism and white nationalism, that pokes its head out at places like Breitbart.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And I'm saying that it's plausible that some privileged and unscrupulous Zionists are doing what you say they're doing. I'm not saying that I believe it is the case, but I'm also not saying that I believe it's not.

(And yes, I know I shouldn't be using the absurdity heuristic, but I'm not making a proper judgement on the issue so I think it's probably fine. Famous last words.)


Oh, I see. I misinterpreted what you meant by "slap […] in the face". Carry on.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll settle for not absurd, cheers.