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[–]Wanga 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

I think maybe we need a longer list of social norms/guidelines.

Wikipedia has the strongest, most resilient culture of any major web platform. It gets stronger as everyone else decays. I think part of the reason is that they have a long wiki list of guidelines, so they can say, "You're using weasel words", or whatever specific violation people are using.

The pyramid of debate is fine and dandy, but it's not enough to cover all situations.

[–]bobbobbybob 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Being a parent, I learnt that children love strong boundaries.

Setting arbitrary and strict guidelines will result in complaints, but happy users. If those guidelines prevent soy soaked group mind-horrors, then that's even better.

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I hate the way Reddit deletes posts for capricious reasons, e.g. "The title of your submission to /r/todayilearned did not begin with 'TIL'. Your post has been deleted." Makes me ragequit.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

Those are the subreddit-specific rules. The only way to prevent that sort of stuff is by having site-wide rules against sub moderator rules

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

or by a cultural taboo against it, like Voat

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

True, cultural taboos can be powerful but hard to cultivate

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I'm attempting with these PSAs, but it's not working. I should really look at the psychology papers to figure out a way to do this, but I keep having ethical issues with doing so.

[–]magnora7 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Well the thing is people don't like being told how to act. So the more you go "you all have to act like X" you get 20% who agree, then 20% who go "fuck that, no one tells me what to do, I'm going to do the opposite!" so in the end it's hard to tell if any real progress is made. The latter is called the "Backfire effect" in psychology.

This is also one reason I'm against having tons of rules, because it apparently just pisses everyone off and doesn't actually better define the culture of the site, and kind of just actually acts like a wedge. I think encouraging positivity is a more useful tool to the end of creating a good site culture, than trying to define ever-narrowing rules which just anger people who then feel attacked by those rules.

It's much easier to just group everything under the pyramid of debate, and give individual warnings as specific scenarios arrive, then do a '3 strikes you're out' system. Keeping everything low-pressure like this makes a better community, then trying to play "culture cop". If you see what I mean.

Voat used to have this thing called "protect voat" and it was basically a mob that descended on anyone they didn't like. It was one of the things that was supposed to stop the cultural backslide problem, but only served to intensify it. I try and learn from their mistakes.

This stuff is super tricky. I think it's one of those things where "less is more". And "If you do everything right, they won't know you've done anything at all". Both those quotes often come to mind when administrating or moderating. I haven't found a better technique, personally. But I do appreciate the PSA, everything said. The culture has to hold itself up, at the end of the day. But I think it works best by example, rather than by telling people how to act.

Anyway, that's kind of my take on this whole thing, because it is insanely complex and subtle to make it work right. So that's what I've figured out so far, hope that gives you food for thought.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Definitely food for thought.

Perhaps we could have a little poll thing, and then articles like Part I of this this, and then polls afterwards, and see what happens to people's opinions. We'd have to A|B test it, and have to throw in a tonne of groups and things that we're not targeting with the pseudojournalism to avoid tipping people off… It could be like a competition: who can be the first to spot it? We could run multiple ones at once, and have the polling being constant and ongoing (like chat: in a little box on every page, asking for people's opinions on a scale of 0 to 10 with radio buttons) and it'd encourage people to think critically about everything they read here.

That isn't quite relevant, but it's close.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Very confusing.

Very complicated.

Didn't read the article.

But there's a seed of an idea that is good on a few levels. Participatory community building, statistical analysis, and in this example, journalism quality assessment.

I don't know about the competition part or "radio buttons".

Sounds like you're going after fake news with a truth meter.

If anything this sounds more like a 3rd and maybe 4th vote. I broke "trust" into 2 for the example below, because you may not agree with someone you trust. It's still lacking because they may discuss several matters but it's better than a vague one.

  • Insightful : Y/N (0 to 10 in future?)

  • Fun : Y/N (0 to 10 in future?)

  • Source : untrusted 0 to 10 trusted (default 5)

  • Content : false 0 to 10 true (default 5)

Might be good if there was an option to participate or not in https://saidit.net/prefs/

If you create this system make it flexible to add more pref options in the future, assuming folks want it.

This may also be an opportunity to just start the voting system over from scratch. Yes there may be a lot of kickback but it may be worth it.

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's not a bad idea, my hesitation would be that over-focusing on the rules as a site culture is going to lead to a rule-obsessed and legalistic site culture, and I'm not sure that's desirable. But that's probably one of the better approaches I've heard, I'll think it over some more